Ghillie brogues - why the dislike and resentment..?

[EagleJCS]

As a college student taking French classes, my professor impressed upon us that more important than diction and conjugation was the music of the language. We should strive to get the rhythm and the intonation just so, according to Professor Carton, and phrasing and pronunciation would naturally follow. So we spent hours alternately humming and whispering back the conversations we heard. It's a brilliant approach to language acquisition, and there must be a corollary in traditional dress, if we could just find it.

Apologies to the OP. I just wanted to take this as an aside to the thread.

I've long thought that understanding a foreign language - or even a foreign accent in English - comes down to the tempo, tone (pitch accent), phrasing (meter?) and stress accent (e.g. EM-pha-sis vs em-PHA-sis) of the speaker. Those are terms also used to describe music, both oral and instrumental. People who have a 'musical ear' can often pick up on nuances in spoken accents (I do pretty well with accents most of the time and I sing and play a handful of instruments, some better than others.)


To bring this back to the thread, tone might be likened to the hues of the attire worn, phrasing in how well the various parts of the ensemble agree with one another, stress accent in a bold color as an accent piece (red shoelaces or a strongly contrasting color for one's flashes compared to one's hose). Tempo I'll have to think on for an appropriate comparison.

[Troglodyte]

The responses to my original query have been interesting...

They kind of confirm what I had long-suspected, and go some way to confirming my view of Highland dress that terms used to describe elements and styles are mixed or confused.

It seems to me that convention, current practice and traditional are indistinct from each other, and that 'traditional' is frequently used to describe a recent trend that has become widespread and commonly seen.

When it comes to ghillie-brogues, there is an abundance of artistic and photographic evidence to show that they have been a recognised part of Highland dress for the past 200 years - their origin and pre-Dress Act authenticity is kind of irrelevant as they were intended from the start to be part of the 'revived' Highland style.

It is generally accepted that a tradition is an act or behaviour that is passed down and continued from one generation to the next; conventions and trends are less enduring. A generation is normally considered to be 20-30 years, which leads us to expect to see three generations (if not more) each century. So we could argue that ghillie-brogues have been around for something like six to ten generations, and continue to be worn in the way they were intended and designed.

Are they not the quintessential traditon?

They have a strong case of being as traditional as the kilt as we now wear it, and probably more traditional than the tweed jacket and waistcoat that we accept without question, but has only taken on 'traditional' form in the past 100 years or so.

But that's really another debate.

Here in Scotland the idea of 'traditonal' Highland dress is puzzling - what other sort is there? It is worn freely for a variety of occasions, and is dressed-up or -down accordingly - whether marching with the Tartan-Army to see a footie international, tramping on the moors, or going full-fig for a wedding.

All of these things are traditions to native kilted Scots, and the ghillie-brogues do appropriate duty when required - so those who would otherwise get themselves shod a-la-ghillie but dare not through fear of others' mistaken prejudices, ought to be encouraged.

Shouldn't they..?

[12stones]

I have no dog in the ghillie brogues fight, but they're not a form of footwear that I'll wear. Regular brogues, never oxfords, though! However, can we talk about how awful buckle brogues are?! lol

Anyway, this has been a fascinating discussion and a learning lesson. Thanks everyone that's provided some historical perspective and for all the pics!

[kiltedsawyer]

"All of these things are traditions to native kilted Scots, and the ghillie-brogues do appropriate duty when required - so those who would otherwise get themselves shod a-la-ghillie but dare not through fear of others' mistaken prejudices, ought to be encouraged."

Ghillies are not for me. That is a personal choice. I have no "mistaken prejudices" about ghillies, or great kilts, or laird's plaids, or pirate shirts. I enjoy seeing different levels of formality and style options. How boring it would be if Argyll jackets were the only jackets made. My only complaint, (and this may show my age,) is slovenly dress. Let this not be taken as snobbish or elitist, I am not talking about those whose economic means limit their options, as anyone spending money on a kilt, (even one that is considered by many as less expensive,) has the disposable income to dress respectfully.

In short, there should be no fears of others' mistaken prejudices if one does their best to be respectful in their appearance. I do think showing up at a Highland Games with a sword is a little weird, but to each his own.
Cheers,

David

[kilted2000]

My only complaint, (and this may show my age,) is slovenly dress. Let this not be taken as snobbish or elitist, I am not talking about those whose economic means limit their options, as anyone spending money on a kilt, (even one that is considered by many as less expensive,) has the disposable income to dress respectfully.

In short, there should be no fears of others' mistaken prejudices if one does their best to be respectful in their appearance. I do think showing up at a Highland Games with a sword is a little weird, but to each his own.

Just out of curiosity what do you consider slovenly and respectful?

[OC Richard]

Americans, by and large, wear the kilt with an accent...

It's the same with music.

In the 1970s and 1980s I learned Irish flute.

Irish people who grew up listening to and playing with local players will play the flute (or fiddle or what have you) with the accent of their region.

I, learning in the US from a couple Irish players here but mainly from recordings (it was pre-internet) played each tune with the accent of the player I learned the tune from. This was as jarring to Irish ears as somebody who learned some of their words in a Dublin accent, some in a Derry accent, and so forth.

With Highland Dress I will say that when I started kiltwearing I was surrounded by a community Scottish men who had worn kilts their entire lives, pipers and fiddlers and RSCDS dancers and Clan Society members born and raised in Scotland.

[SF Jeff]

I'm late to this thread so I'll just quickly say that I've never worn ghillies and probably never will. Outside of a band environment, I see no reason to. They remind me of dance shoes so I'm wondering if that's where they got their start? My piping skills are such that I will probably never perform with a band, so unlikely I will ever own a pair.

I do think showing up at a Highland Games with a sword is a little weird, but to each his own.

I saw a guy in full Outlander/Highlander regalia at some games I attended last week, including full sword on his hip. Looked more like a LARPer or reenactor. His SO was dressed like a faerie or something like that. Looked nice but a little out of place at highland games IMO.

[Ivor]

I have no dog in the ghillie brogues fight, but they're not a form of footwear that I'll wear. Regular brogues, never oxfords, though! However, can we talk about how awful buckle brogues are?! lol!

I wonder how typical this attitude towards different styles of footwear is among contributors here. I have noticed previous controversy concerning shoe types, particularly those described as “Mary Janes” which seems to hint at a certain gender dysphoria in the wearer’s choice. Could this perhaps be at the root of attitudes towards ghillie brogues also and the consequent preference for a fully conventional type of footwear such as Oxfords or Brogues?

[Tomo]

I have a pair of Ghillie brogues - although seldom worn these days (in fact I'm not sure where they are - prob back home in the UK). My preferences is for regular brogues - but I have nothing against the ghillie brogues, I just find them a bit OTT for most occasionswhen I wear a kilt.

To be fair they where included in the package when I bought my first kilt - back in 2000. So not entirely my choice. It was cheaper than buying everything separately and included ecru hose (soon replaced with green, black and charcoal ones), a PC (which I haven't worn for some years now) and a decent WS Scott sealskin sporran (which still gets an outing to more formal occasions). At the time. I attended quite a few back tie events per year - so as a package it has its uses. These days, I tend to wear my kilt mainly to less formal events.

In terms of their history - I wouldn't rule out some historic influence - many folk shoes and traditional national dress look similar - here in Estonia (a pretty boggy country by any stretch) the traditional shoes look very similar to Ghillie brogues - albeit a softer construction and these days use mainly for folk dancing.

[figheadair]

which seems to hint at a certain gender dysphoria in the wearer’s choice[/B].

I'm not sure I follow as the Buckle Brogue style was around long before the Ghillie Brogue came in in the 1850s. The latter almost certainly being from the romanticised reimagining of the Allen Brothers.