Time for a New York State tartan?

[Brian K]

Before looking closely at the design, an initial quick glance at this tartan says "Leatherneck!" Pretty much the same colors involved, no...?

I can see where you might make that connection, Brian, but the Leatherneck has an 8.8" sett and HONY 1aaa is 8". (I know that doesn't seem like a big difference, but to my designing eye it looks huge.) Leatherneck has 4 colors which are quite bright and HONY 1aaa has 6 colors, and they are, in the main, much more muted than those in the Leatherneck. At first glance there might be a little confusion but I'm confident that those who know and recognize the Leatherneck would not mistake the two.

[Brian K]

Ah, but the examples you chose are readily available and very popular. In contrast, very few state tartans are. So therefore, my argument holds enough water to float a battleship. Look how many individual tartans are left in relative obscurity in the Tartan registers.

Besides, you are dismissing what I'm saying without understanding my point: I'm not saying Brian should give up the design process, only to seek support in helping promote it. Again, what's the point of designing a tartan to honour Scottish-American heritage in NY state without getting Scottish-American heritage organizations involved?

T.

Thanks, Todd. In this, and your previous posts, you have articulated what I have thought all along.

Sure, a determined person, or group of people, could make sure a tartan made its way through the approval process but no one would know or care about it.

I can see it now...."Oh, Angus, we New Yorkers have our own tartan now. Would you like a kilt in it?" "Nah, dearie, the ancient McAngus I've been wearin' for 50 years was good enough for me dad and grandad and I don't need anything more." Later that night they're watching the news and the local anchor joker uses it as an interstitial filler so he can make some jokes about and then complain about the pipe music that played under the piece. "See, dearie, it were naught but a bunch o' silliness anyway."

With proper groundwork, support and publicity it might be like this..."OH, Angus, did you see? They approved the tartan!!" "Splendid, dearie, let's call that nice young man at Scotweb and have him weave us some cloth. Who shall we have fashion the kilt? Barb, Matt, Chrystel? Hmmm...decisions decisions." Later that night dearie is puffed with pride as the local anchor joker conducts a serious interview with Mr. Angus McAngus, the head of the local St Andrews Society, and says "Ain't it grand, darlin'. We really must send those X Marks fellas a nice note."

In any event, legislators like things that appeal to constituents at no cost to themselves. Every Scottish organization is made up of voters and there are Scots in virtually every Assembly and senate district in the state. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Regards,

Brian

[blackbeard]

I totally agree with Cajunscot
It took quite a team to get the California tartan bill through the legislature in 2001.

Registered supporters of the bill included:
Saint Andrew's Society of Los Angeles, Inc.
Dixon Scottish Cultural Association
St. Andrews Society of Southern California
City of Upland
Clan MacLeod Society, USA, Inc., Pacific Region
The Scottish Society of Central California
House of Gordon, United States Branch and California Division
Scottish Clan and Tartan Information Center
United Scottish Society, Inc.
Caledonian Club of Sacramento, Inc.
Caledonian Club of San Francisco, Inc.
Clan Steward Society
Clan Morrison Society of North America
Petitions were passed at highland games around the state and over 7,500 signatures were gathered.

It probably didn't hurt that the Assembly had several Campbells, a McPherson, a Dickerson, a Thomson, a couple of Matthews, and a McLeod to author the bill.
It also took a couple of tries to get it to the floor (although when it did; it passed unanimously).

I think another help in getting it passed was the language of the bill...
(b) The oppression of Scots included the Dress Act of 1747, which was suppressive legislation that forbade wearing the kilt, playing the bagpipe, or even displaying a swatch of tartan. The penalty for breaking this law was six months in jail on the first offense, and on the second offense deportation to the colonies in America or Australia for seven years of indentured labor.
(c) The tartan is a symbol of Scottish courage in the face of adversity, of loyalty to family and friend, and of the human qualities of perseverance in a just cause and strength in the resolve that freedom is for the many, not the few, which may serve as a continuing inspiration for all people today.
(d) California is the most culturally diverse state in the nation. Californians of Scottish, Scots-Irish, and other Celtic descent have made major contributions to the history and development of the state.
(e) The state's natural splendor and history have been symbolized in the pattern and colors of the California Tartan sett based on the family tartan of the revered John Muir...

So the adoption of a state tartan could be seen as a symbol of the people and not just a pretty woven fabric.

Good luck and don't give up!

[Brian K]

Thanks, Blackbeard. I appreciate your sharing this interesting information about the process in California.

Regards,

Brian

[AFS1970]

Being from Connecticut, I also have no horse in this race, my only New York connection is that my wife grew up in New York City and there is already a city tartan. However, I posted a bit about this in the other thread on state tartans. When approaching the various Scottish cultural organizations be prepared for some or all of them not to support you. Although you have done a much better process than happened in CT.

I was an active member of the St. Andrew's Society of CT when our state tartan was being moved through the legislature. We were contacted about the issue and ended up writing a letter against adoption. The tartan in question eventually did get adopted. As I remember the issues were that it had been designed as window treatment for a state building, possibly a school. It had not been designed using any of the historical conventions as far as colors or meaning, instead just taking all the colors in our state flag and arranging stripes of them. I do not believe that it was registered with the STA, although it may have been by now, there was some question as to weather it was compliant with some standard. My memory of the events is likely not all that clear, as it was not a major issue for us, but one we did oppose.

When and if you do present one or more of these designs to the various organizations, make sure you say why you picked the colors you did. Even if they have new meanings to them, be able to explain what they mean in the context of this tartan. I think that is one main thing that was missing from the method used in CT.

[Brian K]

Being from Connecticut, I also have no horse in this race, my only New York connection is that my wife grew up in New York City and there is already a city tartan. However, I posted a bit about this in the other thread on state tartans. When approaching the various Scottish cultural organizations be prepared for some or all of them not to support you. Although you have done a much better process than happened in CT.

I was an active member of the St. Andrew's Society of CT when our state tartan was being moved through the legislature. We were contacted about the issue and ended up writing a letter against adoption. The tartan in question eventually did get adopted. As I remember the issues were that it had been designed as window treatment for a state building, possibly a school. It had not been designed using any of the historical conventions as far as colors or meaning, instead just taking all the colors in our state flag and arranging stripes of them. I do not believe that it was registered with the STA, although it may have been by now, there was some question as to weather it was compliant with some standard. My memory of the events is likely not all that clear, as it was not a major issue for us, but one we did oppose.

When and if you do present one or more of these designs to the various organizations, make sure you say why you picked the colors you did. Even if they have new meanings to them, be able to explain what they mean in the context of this tartan. I think that is one main thing that was missing from the method used in CT.

Thanks for the compliment about our process so far. We've only taken the first few steps of what is likely to be a long journey. It's nice to have confirmation of a good start.

As far as "historic conventions' for designing tartans, I think there is a modern misconception about that. Today I think it's common for people who design tartans, or those who have them designed, to assign a particular meaning to each color in the sett. I did this in my OP, but it was more important that the colors work together than that there be any particular shade of any particular color. The design of mine that Amble picked to tweak for our purposes is one she really liked because of my color choices - when I designed it I just picked colors I liked and it was designed two weeks before we even had this idea. It was a lucky happenstance that it fit in with what we wanted to do.

Originally, before tartans were associated with clans or districts, setts were created by weavers from color combinations and arrangements the weaver found pleasing. After the repeal of the Disarming Acts, when tartan began its resurgence, many clans created a tartan by adding a red, white or gold stripe (or two or all three of these colors) to the Government Sett (Black Watch sett) which many clansmen had worn in government service. Other clans picked a sett which was produced by a weaver in their area and some just had them created because the Chief liked the colors. Our ancestors would have thought the idea of meanings in the colors of the sett an odd one.

I'm not opposed to identifying why certain colors have been chosen - and I know people will ask why these choices were made - but the important thing is do they look good together. I'm not fond of the Connecticut tartan myself, but it's not the colors, it's the fact that it's asymmetrical, which can give a kilt maker fits.

Here is a link to an article by Matt Newsome on symbolism in historic tartan design in which the idea of the meaning of colors is discussed: http://www.albanach.org/tartan_symbolism.htm

Regards,

Brian

[Bob C]

Being from Connecticut, I also have no horse in this race, my only New York connection is that my wife grew up in New York City and there is already a city tartan. However, I posted a bit about this in the other thread on state tartans. When approaching the various Scottish cultural organizations be prepared for some or all of them not to support you. Although you have done a much better process than happened in CT.

I was an active member of the St. Andrew's Society of CT when our state tartan was being moved through the legislature. We were contacted about the issue and ended up writing a letter against adoption. The tartan in question eventually did get adopted. As I remember the issues were that it had been designed as window treatment for a state building, possibly a school. It had not been designed using any of the historical conventions as far as colors or meaning, instead just taking all the colors in our state flag and arranging stripes of them. I do not believe that it was registered with the STA, although it may have been by now, there was some question as to weather it was compliant with some standard. My memory of the events is likely not all that clear, as it was not a major issue for us, but one we did oppose.

When and if you do present one or more of these designs to the various organizations, make sure you say why you picked the colors you did. Even if they have new meanings to them, be able to explain what they mean in the context of this tartan. I think that is one main thing that was missing from the method used in CT.

This illustrates my point perfectly. Every group you take this to is going to say, "No, this won't do. Our idea is better." Nothing will get done.

[Brian K]

This illustrates my point perfectly. Every group you take this to is going to say, "No, this won't do. Our idea is better." Nothing will get done.

I certainly understand your concerns, Bob, but the nub of AFS1970's tale seems to be a concern about the process. Indeed, he seems to feel we're off to a good start.

Certainly he details the fact that the St. Andrews Society opposed the project, but my guess would be it had more to do with the way it was pitched to them than anything else.

Reading Blackbeard's post I am more convinced that what we really need is an organized attempt to get support form as many St. Andrews Societies, Highland Games organizations, Burns Societies, et al that we can. Marshal your arguments and gather support. That's the only way to get something done in a legislative setting. Show up alone, so to speak, and, unless you have deep pockets, you'll get little notice.

I don't think we need to come up with 30 designs, like they did in Iowa (at about 6 1/2 times the population of Iowa, trying to get a read on which design was the favorite might take forever), but if we approach the groups with a solid design, and a dress and/or hunting pattern if we decide to go that route, and get their support for the one, two or three designs we are suggesting as the official tartan(s) of NY, we will have better chances of success.

Again, I know we don't want this to take forever, but I do think it is better to have it take a longer time than we'd like than to end up with a tartan that no one cares about because they never heard of it and have no feel of ownership for. Do we want something that people are eager to wear from the get go or do we want a museum piece that people will only see on the web or the Scottish tartans Museum?

If it were easy, or if one of the societies had a better idea already, there'd have been a NYS tartan a long time ago. We're getting there first. If we show up with a design and they have none we have the advantage.

Remember - despite the fact that the Connecticut St. Andrews Society opposed the tartan it WAS approved. I just took a look at the Connecticut tartan again. It's just not a good design. If it were mine I'd not admit it.

Again, let's have patience. This project was started a week ago yesterday and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect something like this to take, at minimum several months. I think it's more likely to take a year or two, but I hope it's quicker. I still think it'd be great to have the approval take place on April 6, which is tartan day, or perhaps on Robbie Burns birthday, Jan. 25.

Regards,

Brian

[BruceK]

Being in the NY snowbelt I would still kind of like to see a small white stripe but I will not make a Federal case about it if it isn't there.

[BoldHighlander]

Having no real dog in the hunt, other than some Dutch ancestors who helped found New Amsterdam (and some distant cousins by the name of Roosevelt), I have found this thread very interesting & I want to wish you all good luck in your quest for a state tartan