wearing other family tartan rather than your own

[Pyper]

I would think that if you sent a letter requesting permission, along with a SASE, and you never heard back, it would be a pretty good indication that he really didn't care.

I asked before, but no one seems to have answered -- is there any indication that clan cheifs, in general, believe they have the authority to grant permission to civilians to wear a tartan that has become associated with their clan? I'm not trying to suggest there is not -- I'm just asking the question.

[Calico]

believe they have the authority to grant permission

I think you are asking the question wrong.

I gather we are trying to take the high road and be gentlemen. It is therefore not about authority, but about being polite and gracious.

If a clan chief cares enough to deny me permission, I will follow his wishes not because I believe in his innate authority, but because I feel honoring others reasonable wishes is the correct way to act.

[tripleblessed]

The question on the authority of chiefs will be avoided by many, as in this day it seems a little arbitrary by our standards. As always, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, the clan chief does indeed have the authority to allow or deny the wearing of the the tartan by anyone. The clan tartan is whatever the chief says it is, and the membership is what the chief says it is. While tradition and accepted practice are considered, only one person wears the feathers where this is concerned. There are cases where chiefs have excluded their own families from the clan (with perceived cause), and in these and other cases the barred persons would not have access to any privileges of the clan such as the wearing of the tartan. Outsiders would always be wearing at the leisure or grace of the chief. In practice, grace and civil behavior are overwhelmingly the norm, but yes the chief can deny the right to wear. At that point, being an outsider, and beyond said authority, it becomes incumbent upon one to act with some measure of one's own grace and respectful behavior.

[McClef]

I wonder if there are two different issues being connected here?

One can find plenty of sources that show that only the Clan Chief has the right to recognise which tartan or tartans shall be so designated and recorded to his Clan.

I have so far not been able to find any authoritative source that states that he has the power to grant or not to grant who may then wear the tartans he has recognised.

[Pyper]

I think you are asking the question wrong.

I gather we are trying to take the high road and be gentlemen. It is therefore not about authority, but about being polite and gracious.

I'm not sure you've understood the question I have in my mind -- probably I didn't explain it clearly.

If someone wrote me a letter asking if it was OK for him to drive on the public road out in front of my house, I'd not think him polite and gracious -- I'd think he was daft, because I don't have any say, one way or the other, about who drives on the road.

That's what my question is about -- do clan chiefs perceive the issue (permission to wear it) as something they should have a say in?

And again, I want to be clear that it's a question, not a statement.

Quote, "and in these and other cases the barred persons would not have access to any privileges of the clan such as the wearing of the tartan. "

I've never heard of anything like that. Do you have a source? On the Lord Lyon's website he says that the clan is anyone with the same last name plus the last name of the septs plus anyone who expresses allegiance unless the chief rejects him. Based on what's there, it sounds like the chief can't ban members of his family if they have the same last name (but maybe the Lord Lyon isn't the ultimate authority on this issue). Obviously there are entirely different issues with the modern clan associations and societies, which have their own rules and usually require dues.

[McClef]

An interesting resource for general (including contact information) is:

http://www.clanchiefs.org/

The Standing Council of Clan Chiefs.

Though it has not been updated since before the Gathering of the Clans.

Not all Chiefs are members though.

Their constitution states:

The Objects of the Council, which is non-political, are to consider matters affecting Scottish Chiefs and the Clans and Names which they represent and to submit their views and interests to HM Government, to Departments of State, to Local Authorities, to Press and Public, to Associations connected with Clan and Family in Britain and overseas; also to educate the general public in matters connected with the rights, functions and historical position of Scottish Chiefs, together with the Clans and Names which they represent and to take such steps as may seem expedient to protect the titles, armorial bearings or other insignia of Chiefs from exploitation or misuse in trade or otherwise.

I can't find any education on the site regarding any requirements to obtain permissions to wear Clan tartans however. If it was such a biggie surely there would be some reference on the site?

[tripleblessed]

In attempting to navigate the myriad maze of my British Isles roots, I've waded through an enormous amount of original source material, i.e. Scottish Record Society, Clan documents and histories, court proceedings, articles of the day.

I read the case of a chief's son and heir banned from the clan who wore his
tartan as part of program of publicly flouting his father's chiefly authority to
bar that behavior. Quite the scandal, strong feelings on all 17 sides of the issue, son adopted by another clan, issue resolved. No, I don't recall where I stumbled across such a jewel (probably at 3 in the morning). Perchance in a sleepy haze I misread, misunderstood, or misremember. Apologies all 'round.

However, I know absotively and posolutely it was a true account, as I read it on the web........ OH.... Wait....

[Lord Fnord]

As a new member to this forum i wish to weigh in on the issue as it has been on my mind a lot lately. Please understand that these are simply thoughts I have had, I mean no offence.

The MacKintosh red I picked (more or less at random) for my first kilt at a fair many years ago has grown on me and despite no relation I wish to claim it for my own.

I really don't want to piss anyone off, i wouldn't wear club colors to a biker bar (some of my inlaws are outlaws so this isnt completely hypothetical) so why would i treat the MacKintosh clan any different.

Medieval sources show men of the same clan wearing different tartans and the whole thing was made up by the Victorians (at least according to some sources.)

But even if that is true, clan tartans are still older than any sports franchise, and those people take thier colors seriously.

Clans have too many damn tartans anyway, theres the regular, then one for this year, or that year, and ancient, and hunting. How many people are there who can really tell anyway?

I want to have a tartan that relates to my geographical heritage, but Michigan has no tartan, and the only Detroit tartan is for police and firefighters, and no one in my family is either. (Shame too, i like the color. Some would say wear it anyway, but honestly I'm WAYY more likely to run into a Detroit Cop than a dues paying MacKintosh.)

My mother's father's line contains Baxter and Campbell, who have registered tartans, but i don't like the colors. And My father's line Is French-Canadian with a little Wyandotte (Indian) so i got nothing there.

Some say clan only counts through father, but thats crap. You get 23 chromosomes from your father, but you get 23 chromosomes and ALL yoru RNA from your mother, and maternal heritage is more certain. Heritage only through a father is a relic of outdated thinking.

How did Black Watch get to be universal? I would think a regimental tartan would be even more sensitive than a clan one. Is it a Scottish counter reaction to Elizebeth adopting the Stuart as the all Brittain Tartan (which is strange as she is windsor, not stuart last I checked. Oh well, you can't expect a Yank to understand these things.)

Speaking of the Stuart red, I like the color of this one, but not being one of Elizebeth's subjects maybe this one is out as well?

I could get one of the many United States tartans, but allthough i bear no ill will to the nation of my birth, I'm not particularly fanitical about it either, and its to vague and general for me to feel a conection with. Hell, at my last job i spent more time in Canada on any given week.

THe bottom line is I'm Looking to save up and spend what is for me, a significant amount of money for a quality kilt, and the choice of tartan has to be right or the whole thing isn't worth doing. If i offend anyone i'd rather do it here than in person, and if my opinion or attitude needs correction, let me know.

[JerseyLawyer]

Fnord, your post is a little stream of consciousness, so I'm not entirely sure I followed all of it.

If you really feel that you've grown connected to the Mackintoshes, you could always write the Chief and ask to be accepted into the Clan. While we get very hung up on surnames, a clan is really just a group under the (at this point very vague and broad) protection and leadership of a Chief. He can let in (or not) whoever he wants.

If you prefer the French-Canadian part of your ancestry, there is a Quebec tartan. If you prefer to emphasize simply being American, there are several handsome "universal" tartans of that type. No American will look askance at you if you wear a tartan associated with your mother, either - and as Jock has pointed out, no Scot would be impolite enough to ask about your tartan-wearing "right".

If you want to wear a kilt in any given tartan just because you like the colors, you can do that too, and the kilt police won't come and arrest you. On the other hand, if you don't like your clan's tartan, and you choose to wear a tartan you have an association with, you kinda just have to grin and bear it. I'm not fantastically a fan of the Matheson tartan, but hey, I didn't get to pick my genes. :P

[Lord Fnord]

Yes i admit i was rambleing. I think im having some sort of (mid-life) Identity crisis. Didn't mean to come off as whiney as i did. Just want to work all this out ya know?