formal evening dress: vest or no?

[saxandpipes]

Not to muddy the waters, but the PC seems to me to be directly related to the Saxon white tie tailcoat, which is usually worn with a waistcoat. I believe the cummerbund derives from sashes. There may be some connection or there may not.

That might explain it.

I regularly have to wear white-tie, playing in the symphony orchestra. This should (as far as I'm concerned) include a white waistcoat, to match the tailcoat. One time the particular orchestra I was playing with required a black cummerbund instead of the waistcoat, and I have to say that I felt downright stupid. To me it just looked ugly, and destroyed the lines that white-tie dress creates, not unlike the kilt (when done properly).

I think the whole point is that the man is made to look taller and slimmer. This is completely negated when when you chop the whole ensemble in half with a cummerbund.



wrong


Here is how it should be done (and I mean the well-dressed man on the left- the other has also managed to get it wrong, the white strip below the jacket having the same chopping effect as the cummerbund).



Cheers,

Michael

[creagdhubh]

I almost always wear a waistcoat with evening dress, and on those few occasions when I don't, I do not wear a belt. I dislike belts with the kilt; a personal thing. As I have shown, though, I am not alone in the sans waistcoat, sans belt look. Here is my chief, Sir Lachlan Maclean of Duart showing that it can be done. In hot climes ( and this pic was taken in Atlanta! ) it makes sense.



While Jock Scot and I seldom--if ever disagree--it is worth pointing out that jabots were not always worn solely at white tie events. In the Western Isles one did/does see them worn more often than in other parts of the world even at black tie events. Why wear "English" neckwear when a beautiful jabot can be worn instead? Still, though, Jock is pretty much spot on, in that nowadays jabots tend to be worn for white tie events only...but there is "wiggle room"!

Now, jabots can be worn quite effectively with PC coatees, if the latter are tailored correctly! In a well-made doublet, the waist is higher, as the top of the kilt is higher. If this is done, then there won't be much shirt exposed and jabots look splendid! Here is a picture (from an old catalogue albeit) to illustrate this look:



I'm afraid I do not agree that a cummerbund is suitable with the kilt; in fact I think it looks downright silly!

I agree!!!

[creagdhubh]

And what about 4 button waistcoats?

Lovely tartan waistcoat, I too own a few-yet they are the three button version. The four is quite elegant. Well done!

[OC Richard]

I am not trying to be obtuse, or contentious, I am just trying to understand, but why are you trying to "...match in with the wedding..."? You are already standing out from the crowd, how is a cummerbund, or any other form of "camouflage", going to tone down your appearance? Why should you even want to match any one? None of the wedding guests will want to "match" you, surely? They have their own wedding attire that is probably an entirely different style altogether.

It's not about the wedding guests, but the men in the wedding party, who all have matching rented outfits. As the piper I'm sort of part of the wedding party in that I'm often standing up at the front with the rest during the ceremony, I'm seen in the wedding photos, etc.

As I've mentioned before, brides here are usually obsessive about having everything matching, and they very much appreciate it when the piper takes the trouble to not clash.

It's why so many pipers around here, the ones who play weddings anyhow, have bought plain black kilts, or Black Isle kilts, or other dark/neutral kilts. Black jacket, black hose, black kilt equals happy bride.

Perhaps it's not like this elsewhere, but here the entire wedding party, including the parents and oftentimes other relatives, are all colour-coordinated. On rare occasions the wedding invitations even specify colours to be worn or avoided by the guests.

[Jock Scot]

Thank you for that and I understand full well what you are saying. I don't think, however, that I shall ever understand the thinking of your clients!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Not wishing to be obtuse, or contentious, or uncaring of the desires of a bride on her day-of-days, but what the "hired help" wear to the ceremony or the reception that follows has, in my opinion, nothing to do with proper traditional Highland attire.

Pipers at weddings are hired performers and are costumed accordingly. The attire worn by paid performers (and that includes singers and members of marching bands) rarely, if ever, conforms to the expected norms of traditional formal dress and probably should not be considered as setting any standards or examples for the wearing of Highland attire.

For those who may have lost the general run of things, here's how it is supposed to work:

WHITE TIE: a white waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets.

BLACK TIE: a black, low cut, waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets. (A tartan waistcoat may be substituted for the black waistcoat.)

DIRK BELTS: worn only if wearing a dirk, and then it is buckled over the waistcoat. A dirk belt is never worn under the waistcoat, and should never be worn in lieu of a waistcoat, except (perhaps) if "dining in" when dress standards may tend to be slightly more relaxed.

FURTHER: a gentleman never removes his jacket in public, especially when at table. He may, however, remove his jacket when playing billiards, or to cover a lady's shoulders should the evening air turn chilly.

And that's it. Couldn't be simpler. No matter what "Fronk" the wedding planner might suggest.

[Jordan]

Not wishing to be obtuse, or contentious, or uncaring of the desires of a bride on her day-of-days, but what the "hired help" wear to the ceremony or the reception that follows has, in my opinion, nothing to do with proper traditional Highland attire.

Pipers at weddings are hired performers and are costumed accordingly. The attire worn by paid performers (and that includes singers and members of marching bands) rarely, if ever, conforms to the expected norms of traditional formal dress and probably should not be considered as setting any standards or examples for the wearing of Highland attire.

For those who may have lost the general run of things, here's how it is supposed to work:

WHITE TIE: a white waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets.

BLACK TIE: a black, low cut, waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets. (A tartan waistcoat may be substituted for the black waistcoat.)

DIRK BELTS: worn only if wearing a dirk, and then it is buckled over the waistcoat. A dirk belt is never worn under the waistcoat, and should never be worn in lieu of a waistcoat, except (perhaps) if "dining in" when dress standards may tend to be slightly more relaxed.

FURTHER: a gentleman never removes his jacket in public, especially when at table. He may, however, remove his jacket when playing billiards, or to cover a lady's shoulders should the evening air turn chilly.

And that's it. Couldn't be simpler. No matter what "Fronk" the wedding planner might suggest.

That sounds about right to me. The only thing I would mention is over here military Dining in nights are usualy black tie events and are very strict in what is acceptable and not acceptable atire and behaviour wise.

WHITE TIE: a white waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets.

Im presuming you mean PC or other such jackets here but What about a Sherifmuir jacket? Would that still be a white waistcoat or the usual one?
And how about a Montrose which doesnt open?

Jordan

[creagdhubh]

Not wishing to be obtuse, or contentious, or uncaring of the desires of a bride on her day-of-days, but what the "hired help" wear to the ceremony or the reception that follows has, in my opinion, nothing to do with proper traditional Highland attire.

Pipers at weddings are hired performers and are costumed accordingly. The attire worn by paid performers (and that includes singers and members of marching bands) rarely, if ever, conforms to the expected norms of traditional formal dress and probably should not be considered as setting any standards or examples for the wearing of Highland attire.

For those who may have lost the general run of things, here's how it is supposed to work:

WHITE TIE: a white waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets.

BLACK TIE: a black, low cut, waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets. (A tartan waistcoat may be substituted for the black waistcoat.)

DIRK BELTS: worn only if wearing a dirk, and then it is buckled over the waistcoat. A dirk belt is never worn under the waistcoat, and should never be worn in lieu of a waistcoat, except (perhaps) if "dining in" when dress standards may tend to be slightly more relaxed.

FURTHER: a gentleman never removes his jacket in public, especially when at table. He may, however, remove his jacket when playing billiards, or to cover a lady's shoulders should the evening air turn chilly.

And that's it. Couldn't be simpler. No matter what "Fronk" the wedding planner might suggest.

Absolutely spot on! Well said Scott!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

That sounds about right to me. The only thing I would mention is over here military Dining in nights are usualy black tie events and are very strict in what is acceptable and not acceptable atire and behaviour wise.

My comments only apply to civilian attire-- those in the military are bound to follow regulations and the traditions of the service.

Im presuming you mean PC or other such jackets here but What about a Sherifmuir jacket? Would that still be a white waistcoat or the usual one?

The waistcoat most often worn with a Sheriffmuir buttons almost to the throat, and is largely covered by the jabot typically worn with that style of jacket. For white tie the traditional black Sheriffmuir waistcoat is acceptable, although I would advocate wearing a white brocade waistcoat with this level of formal attire.

And how about a Montrose which doesn't open?

Jordan

Since it doesn't open, no one will know that you are wearing a tee-shirt, instead of a waistcoat, under the jacket.

[Bruce Scott]

MacLowlife, it's a Sergeant's sash. They're worn in the Commonwealth forces, are red, and denote Sergeants, Warrant Officers, etc. I've never worn one, so I'll leave it to someone else to give more detail.

The Australian Army Infantry Corps adopted the scarlet sash worn by warrant officers class two and senior NCOs from the British Army, which has been wearing it since the 17th century. Some were worn around the waist, whilst others were worn over the shoulder. The sashes were used as badges of rank. However, it is said that they also had a practical purpose, originally being used to drag the wounded from the battlefield. Legend also has it that because they became blood stained it was decided that they would be coloured scarlet so as to 'hide' the blood stains.

The British Regiments of Foot had officers wearing silken sashes over the left shoulder and senior NCOs wore worsted sashes over the right shoulder. Today in the Australian Army, general officers and officers holding certain appointments wear sashes around their waist when dressed in Ceremonial Dress. Infantry warrant officers class two, senior NCOs and senior cadets at the Royal Military College Duntroon , wear the scarlet sash when on parade, in mess dress and when carrying out regimental duties.

There are many tall stories told in messes about the scarlet sash and its cords (or tassels). Stories of the cords range from their representing British Army campaigns or Army line regiments to their use for counting casualties on the battlefield. None of these are true and are often used to leg-pull the newly promoted sergeant.

Source: http://www.defence.gov.au/ARMY/stayarmy/RAINF.asp