Getting a COA registered

[Gael Ridire]

Thanks for the offer WVHiglander, but since my two sons have just gotten' married, I should give them a chance to continue on the arms (however they can change the surname from Bryant back to the original O'Bryan). But say in ten years we'll have to talk again.

[Joseph McMillan]

As for the pretension on social class it has already been stated; there are granted arms by authority, and burgher arms, period.

The English heraldic theorists who propagated this notion have a great deal to answer for!

"Burgher arms" are nothing more or less than the arms of a burgher family--that is to say, a non-noble family enjoying the citizenship of a city. There are also clerical arms, yeoman arms, even peasant arms. Germany and France are full of arms granted or confirmed by authority (Hofpfalzgrafen in Germany, the d'Hozier juges d'armes in 17th century France) that are unambiguously burgher arms. All those arms in the Armorial General de France that belong to "Jean Deaux, marchand de Deauville" and "Richard Reaux, bourgeois de Reaumont"--they're all by definition burgher arms, because the bearers were burghers (bourgeois).

And the entire continent is full of arms belonging to nobles that were originally assumed and never granted or approved by "authority." The English theory would presumably have it that these are "burgher arms"--tell that to the member of the old nobility whose family has been using them for the last 800 years!

To me what is important is the use of arms! I don't care by what authority.

Amen!

My children who grew up with the letters patent on the wall, don't have any real desire to use or display them, especially their spouses. One of my daughters-in-law doesn't understand it at all.

That's okay...the arms are theirs whether they use them or not, and perhaps their children in turn will be interested. Or theirs, or theirs after them. Who knows?

[Gael Ridire]

Point taken concerning Burgher arms! One must be careful to generalize concerning arms rules, for most printed articles are just concerning Great Britain and one forgets that their rules don't encompass the world.

[Gregmc]

Ladies and Gents,

I have been looking at many different options on getting a Coat of Arms registered. I have a more than keen interested in having it registered with the Lord Lyon but I have looked at the many different US Heraldic institutions, all private of course, such as the Augustan Society, US College, etc. I actually have the application for the Augustan Society.

My question is this. Will the Lord Lyon give a new grant, not matriculation of arms (stressed here), to someone of Scottish decent? I have tried to ask this question a couple of times to people associated with Scottish COA but they seem to glaze over my question and go into a litany of matriculating arms.

I have looked at the website and it simply says that they AND I QUOTE"
Foreign Countries. Arms are not generally granted to non-British citizens". Of course I read not generally and do not read not ever.

So if someone has some info or knows about this or can give me a point of contact I would be appreciative.

Hello WV,

I have looked over the thread and with repsect to recognition of arms by Lord Lyon; you can have this done. You'll need a geneology proving you to Scotland, or Ulster and then you may apply for a "new Grant of Arms". You'll need a solicitor to prepare the request and help you organize your research material etc. This avenue porvides you with recognized heritable property and will be a fine choice for Scots descent.

If you choose to register arms in the US, you can, and such registration will not be by a recognized heraldic body as the US has none. Your arms will be considered "assumed". Any protection of your achievement will be minimal; unless you go through your secretary of state for a trade mark.

I hope I've been of some help and I wish you luck.

[WVHighlander]

Hello WV,

I have looked over the thread and with repsect to recognition of arms by Lord Lyon; you can have this done. You'll need a geneology proving you to Scotland, or Ulster and then you may apply for a "new Grant of Arms". You'll need a solicitor to prepare the request and help you organize your research material etc. This avenue porvides you with recognized heritable property and will be a fine choice for Scots descent.

If you choose to register arms in the US, you can, and such registration will not be by a recognized heraldic body as the US has none. Your arms will be considered "assumed". Any protection of your achievement will be minimal; unless you go through your secretary of state for a trade mark.

I hope I've been of some help and I wish you luck.

I actually asked the Lyon's office regarding this and they stated it would need to be matriculated OR granted to an ancestor and then matriculated. Unless you know of a point they have not referred to?? I even asked if I would submit DNA proof in addition to genealogy to show a descent from Scotland but I was told the Lyon's office does not accept DNA proof. However, I am all ears as it were if you have additional advice.

[Gregmc]

I actually asked the Lyon's office regarding this and they stated it would need to be matriculated OR granted to an ancestor and then matriculated. Unless you know of a point they have not referred to?? I even asked if I would submit DNA proof in addition to genealogy to show a descent from Scotland but I was told the Lyon's office does not accept DNA proof. However, I am all ears as it were if you have additional advice.

I don't now . . . I was cajoled for years to apply fora new grant bsed on my own design. Secondly, I know of at least one person who registered his arms in South Africa (as a sovereign grant) and then used that grant to apply with Lord Lyon and receive a grant in his own name. I did read Lyon's page on new grants, but that seems to have been changed from the period I'm speaking of (ten years ago). I would contact a solicitor and his his advise. I could be wrong, but my memroy usually serves me very well.

[WVHighlander]

Maybe I will have to re-check then. If you know the name of a good solicitor I am all ears.

[Cygnus]

Lyon can technically only grant arms to those who fall under his jurisdiction - that is Scottish citizens or those who have come into a Scottish title (e.g., Baron/Baroness). Unless you fall under one of those categories, the initial grant must be made in memory of a deceased ancestor. If you're the firstborn of the firstborn of the firstborn etc., that's it - you inherit your ancestor's arms; if you're not, you'll have matriculate your own arms off of your ancestor's grant.

And MacMillan of Rathdown is probably the best person to recommend somebody to represent you.

[WVHighlander]

Mac has already graciously provided me with a name and artist. However, as always I am open to learning something from someone else's experience

[Gael Ridire]

Good luck with it all! Ask lots of questions, don't hurry anything.