Scots-Irish

[ForresterModern]

Blackrose87

I think it is a major misunderstanding to believe that even a small percentage of US descendants of the original Ulster-scots who emigrated to America, most of those descendants being 4-8 or more generations removed from that original immigrant, would even be knowledgeable of how Northern Ireland was formed and their Ulster-scot ancestors came to be there in the first place, let alone any current events therein. After all, the emigrants did leave for some likely unhappy reason, and found a better life in America and thrived there, among difficult conditions. Except for trying to bring other relatives over to America they would likely have not communicated a bit or cared a whit about from whence they came, except to keep family histories and family lines alive. Multiple generations later, multiple periods of warfare and economic strife and major migrations on this side of the Atlantic tends to make one more concerned about their own local situations rather than those of a distant, both physically and temporally, land and it's relatively unchanging politics over the same period. It is more than understandable, nay expected, that those scots-irish descendants would have little knowledge or concern of the social or political conditions of those that remain in Northern Ireland today. Same probably exists for direct Scots descendants of conditions in Scotland, although it is more likely that more scots immigrants may have come over more recently and thus their descendants may still have maintained ties and lines of communication and knowledge of Scotland politics, especially since they are less politically and religiously charged and polarized than those of NI.

[Blackrose87]

Duplicate post

[Blackrose87]

Thanks for everyone's comments on this thread, I've learned a lot more about the diaspora in America I wasn't aware of.
I think it trying to find which, if any, Ulster-Scots traditions have been preserved in North America I got bogged down in the Ulster-Scots language, which seems like a dead end.
From some quick searching on the google I found that there are some Orange lodges in the USA, and more in Canada, so I suppose this tradition has been preserved to some extent. But these are obviously only attended by a very small minority of Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish in North America.

From what I can gather from this thread, there no real traditions that have been kept by the Scotch-Irish diaspora in America which would be similar to Ulster-Scots in Ireland today.
So has the Scots culture just been adopted by the Scotch-Irish in America? Or are there any differents between the two?

[McElmurry]

I went back and found this blogger I followed a bit a few years ago. He seems to have an honest perspective.

http://clydesburn.blogspot.com/

[Bugbear]

Well for what it's worth, I've been reading, Northern Ireland: A Very Short Introduction, by Marc Mulholland (Oxford UP, 2002) today.
The one on Scotland (same publisher and series, different author) did talk a little bit about Ulster-Scots.

[Blackrose87]

Thanks for everyone who contributed to this thread, it's definitely answered my question, and more so.

The first time I came across the term Scotch-Irish was on this forum, and I had no idea what it meant. Being born and raised in Ireland, and then living in Scotland for the last 8 years I though I would have at least heard this term.
I assumed from the way it was being used that it was in some way a different American diaspora culture that Scots-American.
On reading of its connections with Ulster-Scots, I had thought it would be interesting to see what unique Scotch-Irish traditions there were and how these could be compared to the modern day culture of the Ulster-Scots in Ireland. But as far as I can see, there are none, which is disappointing as I think this would have been quite interesting.

I guess I had also made the assumption of an interest in Ulster and Northern Irish history in the Scotch-Irish diaspora. I had only assumed this based on the extremely high level of knowledge and enthusiasm for Scottish history and culture by Scots-Americans I see on this forum. But again, it seems I was wrong.

I find the topics relating to Scots-American & Irish-American history and culture on this forum very interesting, but as there are many things I cannot fully understand or comprehend, and many things I have absolutely no knowledge of.
I suppose because there is such a high proportion of North Americans here, a lot of references go right over my head and I just can't understand them. So thanks for taking the time to explain this things, and as strange to me as they made seem I think I'm starting to gain a much better understanding of them.

[EagleJCS]

I think if you were to do a poll among those claiming Scots-Irish and/or Irish descent here in the US, you would find that there are widely varying degrees of awareness of personal/family history and interest in Ulster/NI/Irish history and current events. My grandfather always told my father that we were Scots-Irish. I don't know if he was making a pun on the fact that our surname is Scott and his mother was from Ireland (Toome, County Antrim, in fact). I hevn't been able to trace my family back far enough to find the connection back across the Atlantic.

We're also limited by the rules on this forum from discussion of The Troubles, etc., but I'm sure many people (both here and in the general population) are at least peripherally aware of them, as Lyle1 suggested, even if they don't know the entire history and causes.

As Jeff (ForresterModern) and others have said, the various waves of immigration of Ulster-Scots (generally called Scots-Irish here) followed by the Irish-Irish and Scots the the U.S. were more focused on day-to-day survival and becoming integrated into their local communities rather than maintaining the traditions and speech from home. In fact, many immigrants in the early- to mid-1800's were actively discouraged from doing so (look up the Bloody Monday riots here in Louisville as an example). Regarding traditions and prcitices carried over, their children were often told (in effect) "That doesn't matter now. We're in America and you're an American now! Forget about that stuff!"

I find it diappointing that more people don't take an interest in history (their own and history in general). As George Santayana wrote: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


You might also want to take note that the prevailing term these days is Scots-Irish rather than Scotch-Irish (Scotch being an adult beverage and a trademarked brand of 3M tape).

[Blackrose87]

I think if you were to do a poll among those claiming Scots-Irish and/or Irish descent here in the US, you would find that there are widely varying degrees of awareness of personal/family history and interest in Ulster/NI/Irish history and current events. My grandfather always told my father that we were Scots-Irish. I don't know if he was making a pun on the fact that our surname is Scott and his mother was from Ireland (Toome, County Antrim, in fact). I hevn't been able to trace my family back far enough to find the connection back across the Atlantic.

We're also limited by the rules on this forum from discussion of The Troubles, etc., but I'm sure many people (both here and in the general population) are at least peripherally aware of them, as Lyle1 suggested, even if they don't know the entire history and causes.

As Jeff (ForresterModern) and others have said, the various waves of immigration of Ulster-Scots (generally called Scots-Irish here) followed by the Irish-Irish and Scots the the U.S. were more focused on day-to-day survival and becoming integrated into their local communities rather than maintaining the traditions and speech from home. In fact, many immigrants in the early- to mid-1800's were actively discouraged from doing so (look up the Bloody Monday riots here in Louisville as an example). Regarding traditions and prcitices carried over, their children were often told (in effect) "That doesn't matter now. We're in America and you're an American now! Forget about that stuff!"

I find it diappointing that more people don't take an interest in history (their own and history in general). As George Santayana wrote: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


You might also want to take note that the prevailing term these days is Scots-Irish rather than Scotch-Irish (Scotch being an adult beverage and a trademarked brand of 3M tape).

Thanks, very helpfull indeed. It reminds me of the saying by Nobel peace prize winner and fellow Derryman John Hume, "You can't eat a flag". Basically nationalism and culture are all well and good, but they're not going to put food on the table.

Btw Actually either Scots or Scotch can be used here when referred to those of Scottish ancestry in Ulster. Scotch is merely the Ullans version of the word i.e the government body Ulster-Scots agency is Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch.
But if that's not how it's done in America, I'll stick to Scots-Irish from now on.

[Bugbear]

Thanks, very helpfull indeed. It reminds me of the saying by Nobel peace prize winner and fellow Derryman John Hume, "You can't eat a flag". Basically nationalism and culture are all well and good, but they're not going to put food on the table.

Btw Actually either Scots or Scotch can be used here when referred to those of Scottish ancestry in Ulster. Scotch is merely the Ullans version of the word i.e the government body Ulster-Scots agency is Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch.
But if that's not how it's done in America, I'll stick to Scots-Irish from now on.

In my experience on the forum, it is also the Scots who take issue with the use of the word "Scotch" used that way.
I'm not a historian, and find many discussions intimidating, or at least have the feeling that I lag very, very far behind most of the forum members in Scottish and related history. All I can do is get more books to read.

[Blackrose87]

In my experience on the forum, it is also the Scots who take issue with the use of the word "Scotch" used that way.
I'm not a historian, and find many discussions intimidating, or at least have the feeling that I lag very, very far behind most of the forum members in Scottish and related history. All I can do is get more books to read.

Maybe it's a uniquely Irish thing. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen the word Scotch used that way here in Scotland. Haven't really ever thought about it until now.