The Kilt Kops

[DWFII]

It does upset me when this sort of “dog in the manger” rubbish raises its ugly head here from time to time. My wife’s grandfather served in the King’s Own Scottish Borderers at Gallipoli , the Somme and elsewhere in the 1914-18 war and wore a kilt through all his time in the trenches there. He was about as far away from being a true “highlander” in the, supposedly, accepted form as anyone here (apart from one or two notable exceptions) but no-one questioned his entitlement to be wearing a kilt. Provided they are not required to wear a particular uniform anyone is perfectly entitled to dress in any way that they see fit and, as long as they are not causing offence in some way, no-one has any business to say otherwise.
I am sorry that Irish Jack O'Brian and others have felt themselves ostracised from kilt-wearing and hope that they will discover that there are many more native Scots (and others) who are only to glad to see the kilt being worn than the one or two curmudgeons they have encountered

My old dad told me something years ago that I think applies in all this--"you can't demand respect, respect has to be earned."

In some ways that's all Jock and the other "Traditionalists" are saying. Of course, I can't really speak for Jock or anyone else but that's the message I take away from all this. It's not about locality...Scotland or the Highlands vs. the world...it's about the liberties that are taken with a symbol of cultural and national pride. It's about dis-respect. Just because you wrap a piece of cloth around your waist doesn't entitle you to the respect of people for whom the kilt and the history--families, clans, sacrifices, tragedies, glory and pride--mean something.

Just because those Traditions and histories mean nothing to you (a generic, universal "you") doesn't mean that they are unimportant.

The idea that someone can tell you how to dress is absurd. There are no "Kilt Kops" on this forum ...nor anywhere else where democracy and freedom are the social norm, for that matter. The whole concept is a cover for deep seated insecurities...easier to blame someone else.

People keep saying they have the right to wear whatever they like, whenever they like, and however they like. Fair enough.

But if its true then why do we need to feel persecuted or upset or put down by opinions that differ from our own? Why do we need to label people or demonize them or in any other way point the finger except to justify our own uncertainties?.

I wear the kilt...about as often as Jock and his friends and I hope with the same degree of respect. I wear the kilt as a sign of my respect and I don't make any attempt to "interpret" the Traditions and culture that I am paying homage to.

I see Jock's (a generic "Jock" ) comments as interesting. I value his insights and I think he sets a pretty good standard against which I can measure my respect for Scottish Traditions. I enjoyed Jock's poll. I think it was harmless and while it may reflect some impatience with 'liberties" and perceived disrespect, I don't take it personally.

And I'm not going to stop wearing the kilt.

[DWFII]

Is it possible that some people doubt their right to wear the kilt because, at the root of it, they are suffering from an internal lack of conviction?

Similarly, are some people perceiving kilt police where there are only strong opinions and constructive criticism?

Well said!

[Caddy One]

Great Post

[Bugbear]

Maybe I shouldn't say this. Maybe this is a passing thought that I will disagree with in a few hours. But I'm going to put it out there to see if a few others feel the same.

When I found this forum I learned about different styles of kilts. When I joined I formed my style and I made a few friends. Then I hit a lump.
This beast lifted his head. It was the beast of entitlement.
From there on this forum to me changed. Maybe I dug too deep. Maybe I should have left back in March or April. If I could do it all again I would find how I would like to dress in my kilt maybe collect pics of those who would serve as a example of how I would like to look and I would then RUN! I would take xmts off my bookmark list and I would be happy in my ignorance. I would dress in MY style and I would be happy doing it.

This forum has built me up and burned me down all in one year.

Its like a woman. If you find one you love you marry her. Then you stop looking. If you keep looking at other girls you'll lose what you could have been happy with.

Cowher, I tried to express something a little like that when I was trying to decide whether to continue to wear the tartan kilt. I was told by another member to basically shut up, and it left me reconsidering my place on this forum. I eventually decided to put a hold on wearing kilts and tartan because they are strongly tied to a tradition that I do not understand. I was being given advice by one traditionalist that another traditionalist would come along and refute or dispute. I felt duped for a long time, but, as far as I can tell, this is part of the kilt tradition.

Much of this is implicit learning that is really never spoken, but learned from very early ages. I can never make up for that; it is not my tradition; tartan and the tartan kilt is very strongly entangled with that tradition. There are members who have stated they have a near spiritual feeling of connection to their ancient Scottish ancestors when they strap on the kilt. That is something I can not have or learn. I put the kilt away because I don't understand it. That doesn't mean I will never wear a tartan kilt again, just that it has a connection to something I don't yet understand, and might never understand. I think you are working through your feelings on this, and I'm sure you're frustrated, if not emotionally exhausted,, in trying to express what you're feeling.

If this is my insecure lack of convictions, then so be it.

[chrisupyonder]

The Highland council census of 2005 states the population of the Highland region of Scotland as 213590.

49% male but call it half.
This leaves 106795.

Take out a third as being non Scots incomers.
This leaves 71196.

Take out another third as being non Highland clan.
This leaves 47464

Take out another third as being children.
This leaves 31642 adult males.

To say that only this number should wear a kilt is ludicrous.

Jocks poll was a bit of fun not to be taken seriously.
A very small minority of the 31642 may feel this way, say 1%
This leaves 316 people who may have this view.

Come on guys, I think we can ignore them and get on with wearing our kilts.

Chris.

[Jock Scot]

Come on guys, I think we can ignore them and get on with wearing our kilts.

Chris.

That is rather a cavalier attitude with people's opinions, don't you think Chris?

[DWFII]

I eventually decided to put a hold on wearing kilts and tartan because they are strongly tied to a tradition that I do not understand.

Perhaps the worst way to approach this is to give up...or not try.

With anything in life understanding is knowledge and knowledge is power.

But that said, if what we're talking about here is Traditions and culture, it's not some strange language or arcane science. It's just people and their feelings about things that mean something to them. Don't we all feel like that about something? Isn't that part of what makes us human? Is respecting those feelings so hard?

My ancient Scots ancestors left Scotland right after the battle of Bannockburn...well before the Scots themselves knew kilts. I don't feel any mystical attachment to kilts but I do feel some resonance with something in myself...I'm not sure what it is--being a little Scottish, I suppose...and proud of that.

But you know, the best thing about Traditions is that they serve to remind us of important things that we may not understand simply because we weren't there when it happened. By the time a Tradition gets passed down through multiple generations--as any convention or fashion must to truly be a Tradition--no one really understands it the way it was originally understood.

Historians, archaeologists, and serious re-enactors often put themselves in situations as close to events long gone as possible...in order to understand, or come close to understanding, what their ancestors went through, what import/meaning the Traditions carry.

I wear the kilt Traditionally precisely because at some level I don't and can't understand it the way natives Scots do. So I try to be as true to the Traditions as I I know how and I listen very closely to those closer to the mark. That's the way...maybe the only way (for me at least)...that I can come close to understanding something I respect and want to understand.

[Bugbear]

Perhaps the worst way to approach this is to give up...or not try.

With anything in life understanding is knowledge and knowledge is power.

But that said, if what we're talking about here is Traditions and culture, it's not some strange language or arcane science. It's just people and their feelings about things that mean something to them. Don't we all feel like that about something? Isn't that part of what makes us human? Is respecting those feelings so hard?

My ancient Scots ancestors left Scotland right after the battle of Bannockburn...well before the Scots themselves knew kilts. I don't feel any mystical attachment to kilts but I do feel some resonance with something in myself...I'm not sure what it is--being a little Scottish, I suppose...and proud of that.

But you know, the best thing about Traditions is that they serve to remind us of important things that we may not understand simply because we weren't there when it happened. By the time a Tradition gets passed down through multiple generations--as any convention or fashion must to truly be a Tradition--no one really understands it the way it was originally understood.

Historians, archaeologists, and serious re-enactors often put themselves in situations as close to events long gone as possible...in order to understand, or come close to understanding, what their ancestors went through, what import/meaning the Traditions carry.

I wear the kilt Traditionally precisely because at some level I don't and can't understand it the way natives Scots do. So I try to be as true to the Traditions as I I know how and I listen very closely to those closer to the mark. That's the way...maybe the only way (for me at least)...that I can come close to understanding something I respect and want to understand.

My ancestors were not Scots; stretch the rubber band too far, and it snaps. It was out of respect that I put the kilt and tartan away. As I said, it is not my tradition in which to dabble; I need to not give up my own traditions and culture to wear a kilt. I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree that it is not a "strange language or arcane science"; your own words in this post strongly suggest that it is, at least where respect is concerned.
And with that, I am "thinking too much" and getting "bent around the axle," as The Wizard of BC says, so I will withdraw from this thread before I cause trouble.

[Father Bill]

Fellows, I'm reading some posts that say basically that folks should just toughen up, grow a thick skin and have some more gumption. From my counselling experience however, that's just not the way emotions work.

If someone feels hurt, embarassed, offended, upset... that IS the way they feel. Telling them to toughen up is akin to attacking them for having feelings. It would be nice if hurt would go away or better, never come, but it doesn't work that way.

How we respond to someone's comment is within our control, but how we feel just isn't.

I love the tolerance of so many. I love as brothers and sisters those who are carefully minding the way in which they express themselves.

God give me grace and wisdom that what I express in well-meaning kindness never be taken as anything but that, and never as an attack.

[Peter Crowe]

Fellows, I'm reading some posts that say basically that folks should just toughen up, grow a thick skin and have some more gumption. From my counselling experience however, that's just not the way emotions work.

If someone feels hurt, embarassed, offended, upset... that IS the way they feel. Telling them to toughen up is akin to attacking them for having feelings. It would be nice if hurt would go away or better, never come, but it doesn't work that way.

How we respond to someone's comment is within our control, but how we feel just isn't.

I love the tolerance of so many. I love as brothers and sisters those who are carefully minding the way in which they express themselves.

God give me grace and wisdom that what I express in well-meaning kindness never be taken as anything but that, and never as an attack.

A very sage observation Fr. Bill, and one which should certainly resonate with all men and women of goodwill.