Tartan Etiquette

[English Bloke]

John (Antipodean Celt)

I think if you met Jock face to face, you'd understand he's a Scotsman with a real Scottish approach to things but he's not the ogre he is oft' painted on here. I suspect you'd like him very much. Sometimes feelings conveyed in type lose the meanings conveyed in verbal conversation.

I re-iterate, I think we should be less critical of each others opinions. Listen, learn, accept, reject. The choice is ours to make, but we shouldn't condemn.

Jock, sorry to be talking ABOUT you rather than TO you.

By the way. I've had conversations in pubs about family histories. Some of the stories other people have to tell are fascinating and a perfectly legitimate subject for conversation... where I come from

[Jock Scot]

English Bloke.

Two kilts, John, two!

-------and now what are you doing? Ruining, nay destroying, my long worked on "Mr Nasty" image! Sheeesh!

[English Bloke]

hehehehehe!! Tisshhhk. Such extravagance!!

[Phil]

Hi Phil,

I was trying very hard not to be rude. My apologies if you perceive me to have been rude in any way.

I respect absolutely Jock's views and your own. I do not seek to impose my views on either of you.

I merely ask that if people ask for some support in their choices, that they are, in fact, supported. Sharing such personal stories is difficult and sensitive. I am reminded of what my grandmother used to say: If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything.

All the best,

John

Hi John

There has been a great deal of "sniping" at Jock and other Scots of late by a number of individuals here, some such as Matt Newsome who really should know better, and your contribution coming hard on the heels of the others was just another straw for the camel's back. I appreciate that you are from a different background and culture, one where kilts are possibly less known than hen's teeth, and where the response of others may be quite different from that experienced in the home of the kilt - Scotland.
That you may feel it necessary to justify your choice to wear a kilt is understandable but it is not something that Scots such as Jock or I are ever likely to encounter. Similarly neither of us (apologies to Jock if I am speaking out of turn here) would ever contemplate questioning an individual as to his right to wear a kilt, regardless of any personal views held which would remain strictly that - personal.

[Phil]

English Bloke.

Two kilts, John, two!

-------and now what are you doing? Ruining, nay destroying, my long worked on image! Sheeesh!

What is the shame in having 2 kilts Jock? Look at 2 jags Prescott and it seemed to be good for his image. And before anyone casts any nasturtiums - yes I too have 2 kilts. There, I have said it. They say confession is good for the soul.

[Antipodean Celt]

Thanks Jock, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

As you say, this website is not the world on the street. It is a forum for people who share a particular interest. I was most impressed as a visitor to the forum in the cordial, dignified and intelligent discussions to be read about in this forum. I have not joined any other forum like this in my life and I only joined this one because of the impressive level of 'collegiality' I saw. Opinions were varied, but differences were respected.

I appreciate you feel you were being helpful to the poster. I also saw sound advice in the heart of your post. Speaking only for myself, I also felt that your response implied that he ought not have shared his story, that somehow doing so was inappropriate. I feel exactly the opposite way. As I say, that is just how I felt and that is why I posted as I did. My apologies if I misinterpreted what you meant.


When you boil it all down, perhaps it is just that I welcome such stories and find them interesting, and perhaps you do not. That is completely OK of course, such differences of opinion should be welcomed and respected.


By the way, I completely accept your advice that Scots, in general, do not share such personal stories with the man on the street. I might add that Australians, in general, are similarly reserved in person. That is why a forum such as this can serve a very useful purpose in allowing people, in a relatively anonymous way, to share their stories. I hope that might continue.


All the best,


John

[Antipodean Celt]

John (Antipodean Celt)

I think if you met Jock face to face, you'd understand he's a Scotsman with a real Scottish approach to things but he's not the ogre he is oft' painted on here. I suspect you'd like him very much. Sometimes feelings conveyed in type lose the meanings conveyed in verbal conversation.

I re-iterate, I think we should be less critical of each others opinions. Listen, learn, accept, reject. The choice is ours to make, but we shouldn't condemn.

Jock, sorry to be talking ABOUT you rather than TO you.

By the way. I've had conversations in pubs about family histories. Some of the stories other people have to tell are fascinating and a perfectly legitimate subject for conversation... where I come from

Thanks EB, I accept absolutely what you are saying. Sensitivities seem to be running high around here at the moment, and I certainly don't want to add to the tension. I have no problem with stories being shared and forthright opinions being expressed. I am concerned only that posters should feel free to to be able to do so.

[Jock Scot]

What is the shame in having 2 kilts Jock? Look at 2 jags Prescott and it seemed to be good for his image. And before anyone casts any nasturtiums - yes I too have 2 kilts. There, I have said it. They say confession is good for the soul.

I really did not see the need for a new kilt as the kilt that I already had was perfectly adequate for any and all occasions. However two weddings in the family where I was to be a high profile participant and another important event caused the "attire committee" in my houshold to demand that I should have a new kilt. Well alright, so I now have a very smart new kilt and I am very pleased with it, but in truth I still don't think I need two kilts and I don't, I really don't, like having two kilts. And before anyone asks, no, they can't have my spare one!

[Nathan]

Antipodean Celt.

I have to confess that I am somewhat nonplussed at your post. Not upset I hasten to add. In real life, out on the street do you tell complete strangers the intimate details of your pedigree? Well not me or my friends and acquaintances do and I suspect not many out in the wide world do either. Its not that there is anything to be ashamed of, possibly there is a lot to be very proud of, but these are private matters that just do not in my experience get talked about with strangers. Normally.

Now a website such as this is slightly removed from the world on the street and does allow people to ask questions even quite personal ones without criticism with like minded members, and helpful, I had hoped, answers given . I am sorry that you have read into my reply given here a few posts ago something that I certainly did not intend, but I hope on reflection that you can see the difference between a website and the world on the street.

Frankly I do find it very odd that complete strangers from outwith Scotland(I have never had such a conversation with a Scot) come up to me-----and others------ and want to discuss in detail their ancestry, does it not occur to them that I/we may have other things to do with our time? However, they are nice people generally and I do try to at least give them a few minutes (hours sometimes!) and as I think I have said before, I do not begrudge them my time because they are nice people.

Jock,

I think this is a valuable perspective to keep in mind. In the interest of international cultural understanding, I should mention that among diaspora Scots, one's ancestry is a very common conversation. It is how we find things in common. Usually when a person is kilted here, they are at a Scottish event like a Highland Games. When I work the Clan Donald society tent, I spend the whole day talking to people (Donald and others) about their ancestry and helping them to identify the likely tartan(s) with which they and their family are most closely associated.

Further, in Cape Breton, we're on an Island with a lot of very common last names (MacDonald, Gillis, MacNeil, Chaisson, Cameron, Campbell etc...) so a discussion of ancestry is a valuable (essential) way to determine if a possible romantic interest is, in fact, a cousin. So again, geneology is an open and common discussion.

I often have people ask me if it's appropriate to wear the tartan of their maiden name when they marry into another Clan or whether it's appropriate to wear the tartan of their maternal grandmother as their only Highland ancestor etc...

People usually have to reveal some things about themselves in order to frame these enquiries. As we all know, there are shelves and shelves of "clan tartan" books and "sept" lists which endeavour to link names with tartans. Given that context, I think it's completely understandable that people deduce the need to justify their connection to a particular set.

As an aside, I invited a Macdonald man to march with me in the clan parade this weekend at the Fergus Highland Games. They have a rule that Highland attire was required to march with the clans. He rushed off to purchase his son a kilt so the boy too could march with us and the child arrived in a brand new Black Watch tartan kilt.

The Campbell clansman (from somewhere in Scotland) in front of us turned around and said, "Oh look, the young Macdonald lad is wearing Campbell! Good boy!"

It was a good natured tease, but the colour drained from the father's face briefly before being replaced with a bright red.

I don't say this because I disagree with anything that you said, and you likely have heard all of this before. I just thought I'd point out that among diaspora Scots, ancestry, geneology, clan feud history and tartan are the main conversations at these events. We don't talk about how good the stalking or salmon fishing is around Fort William, for example, because most of us have never been there, and if we have, we were visiting historic sites of battles, museums, grave yards and distilleries or trying to track down...our ancestry.

This context of diaspora Scottish culture in general should explain why people feel the need to connect themselves to a clan or family or tartan from the Auld sod and why they like to share what they have learned with anyone they assume (rightly or wrongly) might share their interest. The tourists you meet are likely at the height of their personal interest and research into such matters and bursting to tell anyone who will listen about it.

Addendum: Discussing ancestry is also a strong Gaelic trait. The first question someone (especially an older person) asks in Cape Breton when they meet a new local is, "What's your father's name?" or "Which Mac_______ are you?". In fact, this trait is the basis of the clan system and patronymic Highland family names (being called after a significant paternal ancestor) and prior to surnames, the Gael would list more than one ancestor to explain exactly who he was.

Consider my High Chief's sloinneadh: Gorraidh Seumais mac Alasdair Gorraidh mhic Gorraidh Eòghann 'ic Ragnhaill 'ic Gorraidh Uilleam 'ic Gorraidh 'ic Alasdair 'ic Alasdair 'ic Seumais 'ic Domhnaill Breac 'ic Seumais Mhor 'ic Domhnaill Gorm Og 'ic Gilleasbuig Cleirich 'ic Domhnaill 'ic Domhnaill Gorm 'ic Domhnaill Gruamach 'ic Domhnaill Gallach 'ic Uisdean 'ic Alasdair 'ic Domhnaill 'ic Eoin 'ic Aonghais Og 'ic Aonghais Mhor 'ic Domhnaill 'ic Ragnhaill 'ic Somhairle.

The sloinneadh was not just reserved for chiefs. Mine is Natan Easbaig mac Daniel Ualraig mhic Ioseph Ualraig 'ic Aongais I. 'ic Iain 'ic Aongais 'ic Callum Dhòmhnaillach.

[Liam]

English Bloke.

Two kilts, John, two!

-------and now what are you doing? Ruining, nay destroying, my long worked on "Mr Nasty" image! Sheeesh!

Jock....How will you ever decide which one to wear - the old one or the new?

Cheers and good health!.... Bill