Military Box-Pleats: some questions for the rabble.

[Friday]

I hope this thread has been educational for folks, and it doesn't seem too much like crotchety old kiltmakers arguing over unimportant details. :-)

Gentlemen, this has been very educational and and excellent discussion. IMHO I have often found the "crotchety ... [arguments] over unimportant details" are often the most enlightening. That this discussion was held between and as ladies and gentlemen makes it even more of a joy to read.

I ask that the "crotchety old kiltmakers" keep up their arguments so that I and the other unwashed and unlearned kilt wearers and can learn at the feet of the masters.

[Joe I]

Gentlemen, this has been very educational and and excellent discussion. IMHO I have often found the "crotchety ... [arguments] over unimportant details" are often the most enlightening. That this discussion was held between and as ladies and gentlemen makes it even more of a joy to read.

I ask that the "crotchety old kiltmakers" keep up their arguments so that I and the other unwashed and unlearned kilt wearers and can learn at the feet of the masters.

Excelent point!

And my thanks also to John Hart.

[OC Richard]

Very cool... three pictorials from three kiltmakers showing how to approach this thing.

What I'm still not clear on is the approach to the stitching of the pleats. John mentions sewing through several layers of cloth, a different approach to the sewing of the pleats than is usual for a knifepleated kilt. As I understand it, some or all of you sew the pleats going the opposite way than you would for a knifepleated kilt.

Elsie Stuehmeyer told me that the stitching is done exactly as on a knifepleated kilt (as Matt said, at that point the kilt is neither knifepleated nor boxpleated) and later the pleats are folded to create the boxpleated effect. She made loads of actual Army boxpleated kilts while at Thos Gordon, so I would think that she would know about it.

[slohairt]

Not really. I'm still sewing in the same direction as I would for a knife-pleated kilt. I'm just catching the extra edge of the next pleat on the way back up through the stitching. The method that Matt suggests would still work, although it would be a bit awkward when dealing with, say, a 1-inch pleat facing. That method requires the knife-pleat ("pre-boxed", if you will) to be sewn to one layer of cloth. The method for sewing knife pleats as outlined by Elsie and Barb (sewing one pleat to the next folded one) wouldn't allow for any manipulation of the pleating after the fact because it's sewn through both layers.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Not really. I'm still sewing in the same direction as I would for a knife-pleated kilt. I'm just catching the extra edge of the next pleat on the way back up through the stitching. The method that Matt suggests would still work, although it would be a bit awkward when dealing with, say, a 1-inch pleat facing. That method requires the knife-pleat ("pre-boxed", if you will) to be sewn to one layer of cloth. The method for sewing knife pleats as outlined by Elsie and Barb (sewing one pleat to the next folded one) wouldn't allow for any manipulation of the pleating after the fact because it's sewn through both layers.

Yeah, what he said. :-) When you are dealing with the very narrow pleats one gets in an 8 yard kilt, the normal method would be to sew through both layers (the pleat you are sewing plus the one below), but in a lower yardage kilt there is really no need for this. This has more to do with the amount of material used in the kilt (and consequently the size of the pleats) than whether the kilt is box pleated, knife pleated, etc.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

So I mentioned to Steve after he posted his pics that I ought to post some "bottom-up" pictures of the six yard box pleated kilt I was making, for comparison, once I was done with it. Then I realized that I really need not wait, as I have multiple examples of box pleated kilts made from different amounts of material in my own closet.

Since people really like seeing photo illustrations of the things we are talking about here, I thought it would be neat to show the continuum of box pleats, made using increasing amounts of material. So we'll start with the historic style of box pleated kilt made from about 4 yards of cloth. This would have been the common style from the 1790s (the earliest tailored kilts) up till the mid-1800s.


Next we have a box pleated kilt made from 5 yards of cloth. This would have been more common in the middle part of the 19th century.


And now a box pleated kilt made from 6 yards of cloth. This would have been seen in the latter half of the nineteenth century.


Sorry about any imprecision in the dating, but you have to understand that the trend towards more yardage in the kilt was a gradual thing that took place over the course of the century. It was not as if a date rolled by on the caledar after which all kiltmakers began using a higher amount of cloth.

Also, a point to note is that the latter two kilts pictured both are made from tartans with rather larger than usual sett sizes, which also affects the pleat size, as they are pleated to stripe. But I think the photos still work to illustrate the point.

Notice as the yardage increases, the box pleated get more "lop sided" with the pleat depth increasing on one side and decreasing on the other.


Now, thanks to Steve, we have this great image of a box pleated kilt made from 8 yards of cloth. As we would expect, the pleat depth continues to get more narrow on one side and deeper on the other. As the amount of cloth in the kilt increases, two things happen -- the face of the pleat (the part you see) becomes smaller, and the depth of the pleat (the part you don't see) becomes larger. This is true whether you are talking about a box or knife pleated kilt. This is just what that effect looks like in a box pleated kilt.


And John has graciously provided us with a photo of the same using a traditional regimental weight tartan, which gives added thickness to the pleats because of the more robust cloth. So this is what you would see in a typical box pleated regimental kilt made anytime in the 20th century.


I really hope that people are seeing the continuity here. From the 1790s till the 1890s the amount of material used in a kilt (military or civilian) increased from a nominal 4 yards to a nominal 8 yards of cloth. Over that century the increase was gradual, and irrespective of box pleats (the original form) or knife pleats (first introduced in the military in 1853).

If people reading this thread come to understand that box pleats are box pleats regardless of the amount of cloth used, and any differences in appearance are the result of difference in yardage, and not the introduction of a new pleating style, then I say this thread has been worthwhile and I will be a happy man. :-)

[Joe I]

A comment from Elsie would be nice. Does she come here?

[Friday]

I really hope that people are seeing the continuity here. From the 1790s till the 1890s the amount of material used in a kilt (military or civilian) increased from a nominal 4 yards to a nominal 8 yards of cloth. Over that century the increase was gradual, and irrespective of box pleats (the original form) or knife pleats (first introduced in the military in 1853).

I know the change in yardage has been discussed before but I don't remember if and advantage to this increase has been discussed. I can see one, more yardage means more money for the mills and kilt makers and a possibly greater warmth and greater swish. Is there any advantage other than style?

[Friday]

If people reading this thread come to understand that box pleats are box pleats regardless of the amount of cloth used, and any differences in appearance are the result of difference in yardage, and not the introduction of a new pleating style, then I say this thread has been worthwhile and I will be a happy man. :-)

As I said above very informative and to me a box pleat is a box pleat is a box pleat. Thank all again.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I know the change in yardage has been discussed before but I don't remember if and advantage to this increase has been discussed. I can see one, more yardage means more money for the mills and kilt makers and a possibly greater warmth and greater swish. Is there any advantage other than style?

I know many people say "more money for the mills" but I honestly don't think it was anything that nefarious. Honestly, I think it was just a change in style, perhaps precipitated by the fact that over the course of the nineteenth century the kilt went from being an article of day-to-day clothing for many Highland men to being an article of mostly ceremonial dress. When clothing becomes something worn only for special occasions, it does tend to become more stylized and exaggerated, so perhaps this contributed to the increase in yardage.

Of course it could just be that people thought the narrow pleats looked pretty groovy. :-)