New Development in Scottish "Super-Regiment" Story

[Mike n NC]

There is an ongoing battle here in the states that is very much like this. The United States Army has been trying to gain control of the Marine Corps and get it away from the Navy for years. Using the argument that anphibous assult is a thing of the past and that a modern, combined infantry would be ever so much better (horsepoop).
Unfortunately I fear the USMC is about to shoot themselves in the foot with all the changes they have been pushing for in their attempt to become an independent service and away from the USN. The Navy has pretty well held the Army off over the years but if the Commandant becomes an independent member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (and the Junior Officer at that even should he be the Chairman) the USA will be all over them (the old ugly on a ape thing). Should they become part of the Army the Marine Corps would be ruined, the Army improved by a small bit and the world a sadder place for it. I have had the honor of fighting with both forces and there is no question in my mind, the USA takes a way back seat to the Corps.

Mike

[GatorUK]

I'm at a Joint Command and have not heard anything about the Army trying to absorb the Marines from the Navy. On September 30, General Peter Pace will be the first Marine to become Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. He is moving to that postion from Vice Chairman. The Chairman JCS is the senior officer of the US Military regardless of his service. General Hagee is still going to be the CMC.
But if you don't know whats going on in the Navy these days I'll fill you in. The outgoing CNO wants more ships and less sailors and is cutting manpower by about 125,000. (I guess he wants to sail the ships with Windows XP, but who is gonna paint the damn things?) Just recently a policy went into effect that if you want to make First Class or Chief you are going to need an associates degree (possible a bachelors for Chief but I haven't followed up on the final decision), but a bachelors for Senior and a masters for Master Chief. (I know..you think I'm smoking crack). With all the time they will have to spend at sea how are you going to find time to get a degree.
The army is currently running a "blue to green" program taking in personnel that the Navy and Air Force are not letting re-enlist due to manpower cuts. They retain rank and time in service but learn to speak Army, etc.
(I haven't even started on the uniform changes)!

[James]

On a lighter note-as a very young officer many--many years ago-the Colonel rather than the commanding oficer of my Bn spoke to us-how he'd been a very young commanding officer in WW1.

Telling us:-

Going back a bit futher, my county regiment had been formed from two numbered regiments-and there were still in his day officers who refused tio use the County name and called the service bns-by their old numbers.

Come forward a bit-in the 60's I served alongside an officer who on his mess kit wore numbered buttone-because his grandfather had been commissioned in a numbered regiment-and he was 'dammed' if he was going to go against family tradition. He by the way got a good medal in Korea.

The point being that depending on needs-military necessity these things will change: it is a great shame-but that is the reality of the military.

The problem as ever is to find a balance and preserve the best of the old without losing the ability and spirit to fight today. Sadly the retention of ephemerals will not offer that ability and spirit.

James

[Sir Robert]

The US Army is reorganizing it's Bragades into "Units of Action" this will be an independant unit of some five thousand men this will be a baby Division. The problem is that we will have only about 10 divisions and it is the Division that has a destintive patch. So many units with no direct linkage to a outstanding World War II Division will have it's patch while other patches will go away like Patton's 2 Armored Div's HELL ON WHEELS.

With 48 UoAs we could keep 48 historic patches alive by renaming the UoAs to "Division."

What could be done in the "Super Regiment" is to give the historic regimental crests to the Battalion level units.

[macwilkin]

What could be done in the "Super Regiment" is to give the historic regimental crests to the Battalion level units.

This was already proposed as a compromise, but obviously, was ignored by the MoD.

I hadn't thought about the Division patches, Robert, but there will be a lot of history lost there, since the Divison patch originated at the end of the First World War.

Cheers,

Todd

[Mike n NC]

I'm at a Joint Command and have not heard anything about the Army trying to absorb the Marines from the Navy. On September 30, General Peter Pace will be the first Marine to become Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. He is moving to that postion from Vice Chairman. The Chairman JCS is the senior officer of the US Military regardless of his service. General Hagee is still going to be the CMC.
But if you don't know whats going on in the Navy these days I'll fill you in. The outgoing CNO wants more ships and less sailors and is cutting manpower by about 125,000. (I guess he wants to sail the ships with Windows XP, but who is gonna paint the damn things?) Just recently a policy went into effect that if you want to make First Class or Chief you are going to need an associates degree (possible a bachelors for Chief but I haven't followed up on the final decision), but a bachelors for Senior and a masters for Master Chief. (I know..you think I'm smoking crack). With all the time they will have to spend at sea how are you going to find time to get a degree.
The army is currently running a "blue to green" program taking in personnel that the Navy and Air Force are not letting re-enlist due to manpower cuts. They retain rank and time in service but learn to speak Army, etc.
(I haven't even started on the uniform changes)!

I guess I got in a little closer to what was going on since I wasn't with a joint command, I was attached directly to the MC. That fight has been in progress since korea, got really hot after nam and then heated up again after storm chapter 1. The Army really, really wants the Marines, something about teaching the right way to fight? Fight my big'ol butt, most of them can't even dress themselves and they are going to teach a Marine to fight?

Now I got some scuttlebutt to pass on too. You think the politics in the top 3 enlisted are getting bad? Here is a quick and dirty on the Chair going to a Marine. Never before has the Marine Corps had an officer eligible to hold that position, reason...they never had a 5 star. Sooooo, even though he will be the SOPAA, he will be the junior in both rank and positon (new kid on the block kinda thing) and don't think the others will ever let him forget. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, would be like a me having that BMCM we were talking about earlier working under me. He might put up with it, for a while, until I screwed up but he would never, ever let me get a minute of peace in the goat locker.

And while I'm at it, a thought on the degree requirement...bulls**** :smile: Just what the Navy needs, more over educated pinheads. I see the idea of equating education with intelligence hasn't changed...

Just one more question...Are PO1s in the goat locker yet? (Tell me it ain't so)

I remember back in the old Navy... How old? Why sonny I done wore out more seabags than you have socks...

Mike

[jfellrath]

I remember back in the old Navy... How old? Why sonny I done wore out more seabags than you have socks...

Mike

Especially if you actually got the socks at Old Navy!

I'm sorry... just couldn't resist...

[GatorUK]

Here is a quick and dirty on the Chair going to a Marine. Never before has the Marine Corps had an officer eligible to hold that position, reason...they never had a 5 star.

Never having a 5 star doesn't have anything to do with being nominated as Chairman. There has only been only one Five Star (Omar Bradly) to hold that position and the Five Star rank passed into history when he died. The breakdown since the JCS inception is Army-8, AF-4, and Navy-3. Current US law is the following:
"The Goldwater-Nichols DOD Reorganization Act of 1986 identifies the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as the senior ranking member of the Armed Forces. As such, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is the principal military adviser to the President. The Vice Chairman is the second senior ranking member of the Armed Forces." There is no ":...but if the Chairman is a Marine he's not really senior" clause.
The Service Chiefs (Army Chief of Staff, Air Force Chief of Staff, Chief of Naval Operations and Commandant of the Marine Corps) are "dual hatted" and serve as the heads of their respective services and as members of the Joint Chiefs. The Chairman and Vice Chairman are not dual hatted or have duties within their respective branches of the service.
Today, the Joint Chiefs of Staff have no executive authority to command combatant forces. The issue of executive authority was clearly resolved by the Goldwater-Nichols DOD Reorganization Act of 1986: "The Secretaries of the Military Departments shall assign all forces under their jurisdiction to unified and specified combatant commands to perform missions assigned to those commands..."; the chain of command "runs from the President to the Secretary of Defense; and from the Secretary of Defense to the commander of the combatant command." For example, USCENTCOM commands all Forces in the mideast.
Some folks think the CMC reports to CNO because the Marines are part of the Department of the Navy. CMC is an equal to CNO and reports to the Secretary of the Navy just as CNO does.

more info available at: http://www.jcs.mil/about_cjs.html

[Mike n NC]

Hmmm, hold up a minute now and keep yer anchors on. I never said anything about regs thought I think if you check a little further you will find that the holder of the Chair must be (have been?) eligible to hold the position of 5 star and that the rank would be used only in time of war. The Marine Corps under the Dept. of the Navy and SECNAV never had a 5 star position and always defered to the ranking Naval officer that was in line for Fleet. All of this used to be in the BJM thought I doubt that even exists anymore.

About seniority I have no question that you are correct, I know those regs as well but to make it even more simple... as two CPOs I may work for you but, and you know this to be a fact if you take the time to think about it, I'm senior to you so your authority is only positonal. When it comes to the goat locker you are still a boot hat and should it ever come to crunch time onboard and I see you going wrong, I will take the day, the authority and the responsiblity. Submarine service was even worse, a non-qual 1st could very easily be working for a qualified 2nd or even a 3rd until he got qualified.

You kinda see where I'm going here, yes he will be the ranking officer in position yet he will still suffer the slings and arrows of being the "boot hat" though I suppose they will pass on the pink tu tu and truth serum.

Now, all this is pending on whatever changes have taken place since 91 but I doubt the Zeros have changed that much and he is in for a good ribbing if nothing else.

Mike
Edit for info. the Chair in time of war must have been eligible for promotion to 5 star, if needed, to prevent bickering amonst the 4 stars as to who is senior, who is going to do what an who is not.

[Manu]

The reason why we (the Marines) dont use the 5 star rank is simple. We are just that good, and we dont need to advance a general to such rank to perform better during time of war. We are the fines fighting organization in the world. ( Sorry, bootcamp knowledge never goes away).