"Scottish-made" kilt

[Raphael]

Look like he is trying to sell you one of his kilts. I hate sales people like that. I personally will not deal with sales people would trash their competitors during their sales pitch. I have been in sales for a long time, and I have never done that.

[cessna152towser]

I own handmade 8-yard kilts in Lochcarron fabric, built by two different local kiltmakers here in the Scottish Borders. One of them builds kilts with two straps and buckles while the other uses three. The fabric may be woven by Lochcarron in Scotland and the kilt may have been assembled by a Scottish kiltmaker, but the individual kiltmaker will have his or her own take on what constitutes a proper kilt.

[cajuncelt]

Thanks. It looks like the fabric is from Scotland, but the kilt could've been made by anyone (which is not what they told me at the time) and probably could've been a better quality. Oh well...spilled milk.

[Cawdorian]

A present day Lochcarron kilt made by Lochcarron should have an embossed logo on the top right leather strap. It should also have another label inside on the waistband that gives the date of manufacture, waist size, hip size and length of the kilt. Three buckles are standard on most kilts, there are a few exceptions.

Many kiltmakers use Lochcarron fabric, one of my kilts was made by Lochcarron, the other is made of Locharron fabric, but was made by another manufacturer.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Just because it has a Lochcarron label does not mean Lochcarron made the kilt. Many of my kilts, for example, have Lochcarron labels because I use Lochcarron cloth. So that's no guarantee.

I'm very family with Lochcarron kilts as they supply the majority of kilts to the Scottish Tartans Museum. I can tell you without hesitation that Lochcarron made kilts are top quality.

However, I wasn't in the business 15 years ago, so if this kilt was made by them 15 years ago, I really couldn't comment. However, as I said above, just because the label says Lochcarron doesn't mean that they made the kilt.

However, I think this guy is a little confused over what constitutes a "quality kilt." There are lots of ways you can tell a quality kilt from a poorly made kilt, and you can look at Barb T.'s book to learn those. But looking at the little hanger loops and counting the number of buckles ain't among them! :-)

First of all, those little hanger loops are completely superfulous. Not all kilts even have them, and that's just fine. If you have them, whether they are made of silk, or cotton, or rayon, or whatever doesn't really matter.

Second of all, almost every kilt you see, whether it is made in Scotland, the US, Canada, Australia, or anywhere else, will probably have three straps. This is just the way kilts are usually made these days. That lower strap on the right hip is completely unneeded, and I don't put them on my kilts. However, this is largely a matter of preference, and really doesn't reflect on the quality of the kilt, or lack thereof.

A few things you mention would indicate a lack of quality. First, no canvas beneath the lining -- this is typical of casual kilts today -- 4 yard varieties. These usually don't have any canvas because in these cases the cloth inside the pleats is not cut out. Since the wool is left intact, you really have enough thickness in the back of the kilt that canvas isn't needed, so it's not usually put in. For instance, when I make my four yard box pleated kilts, I put a 2" wide strip of canvas in at the waist line only for reenforcement, but I don't line the whole thing with canvas. In a lot of the "casual kilts" I have examined by many major kiltmaking firms, canvas just isn't used at all.

In an 8 yard kilt, the cloth inside the pleats should be cut out, and a full layer of canvas would be expected to stiffen the back of the kilt. All Lochcarron made 8 yard kilts I have ever seen have had this, so this is one indication that Lochcarron did not make the kilt.

The fact that the buckles were sewn on with a machine is also a red flag. The kilts I've seen this kind of machine work on have all been less expensive casual kilts. In an 8 yard kilt, this is usually done by hand, like any other visible stitching. Again, all Lochcarron kilts I have examined have had hand stitched buckles.

Lastly, this guy seems to be saying your kilt could not have been made in Scotland because of these supposed "flaws." Nonsense. Made in Scotland does not always equal quality (though a lot of qulaity kilts are undoubltedly made in Scotland). This is only to say you can't just assume that if a kilt is made in Scotland it will be the best quality, and if a kilt is made anywhere else it will be poor quality. Some of the best kilts I have seen have been made in North America (US and Canada). I've also seen some "less than fabulous" kilts made in Scotland. So county of origin is no guarantee.

Aye,
Matt

[Scott Gilmore]

... you can't just assume that if a kilt is made in Scotland it will be the best quality, and if a kilt is made anywhere else it will be poor quality. Some of the best kilts I have seen have been made in North America... I've also seen some "less than fabulous" kilts made in Scotland. So county of origin is no guarantee. ...

This was my first thought when I started to read this thread.

My experience with Scottish-made products is not unlike my experience with products from anywhere else in the world. Some are magnificent and some suck. Scotland, like everywhere else, produces craftspersons who take sincere and profound pride in their work, and others who exploit the good reputation those fine craftspersons earn by selling slop and calling it "quality" simply because it's made in Scotland.

I see you're another kiltie from southern Arizona. Arizona is well represented here (which somehow strikes me as odd, considering the temperatures in the region and the woolly nature of kilts). A warm welcome to the forum from Southern California. If you're ever in San Diego and you'd like to see the quality-spectrum of Scottish made garments, look me up.

[Nanook]

However, I wasn't in the business 15 years ago, so if this kilt was made by them 15 years ago, I really couldn't comment. However, as I said above, just because the label says Lochcarron doesn't mean that they made the kilt.

15 years ago cheap kilts from the sub-continent were not terribly common-- just bagpipes and footballs.

First of all, those little hanger loops are completely superfulous.

They are definitely NOT superfluous. I find them quite handy for hanging a kilt by a peg. This can be essential. Its not, however, an issue of workmanship and easily added later.

Second of all, almost every kilt you see, whether it is made in Scotland, the US, Canada, Australia, or anywhere else, will probably have three straps. This is just the way kilts are usually made these days. That lower strap on the right hip is completely unneeded,

On modern lower sitting civilian or casual kilts they are without use but on traditional high rise kilts they are essential to proper fit.

A few things you mention would indicate a lack of quality. First, no canvas beneath the lining -- this is typical of casual kilts today -- 4 yard varieties. These usually don't have any canvas because in these cases the cloth inside the pleats is not cut out.

If the kilt is intended to hang from the hips (as skirts and many modern kilts) then one has little need for heavy canvas facings.

The fact that the buckles were sewn on with a machine is also a red flag.

Not really a red flag. I would not completely discount machines. There are many specialized machines that do a very good job. Some of the best tailors in the world will use machines when they are available. The talk of hand stitches is like "working" sleeve buttons on jackets: marketing. To throw more oil into the fire: I doubt if many people could tell the difference between machine and first grade hand stitches as the current generation of computer controlled machines do an extraordinary job of emulating and mimicking hand workmanship. Machines have come a long way from the days of Isaac Singer. Most of the Pakistani kilts, by contrast, are completely hand stitched and sewn.... (and not terribly accurate since they are paid by piece and need to work very fast)

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Nonook writes about the hanger loops:

They are definitely NOT superfluous. I find them quite handy for hanging a kilt by a peg. This can be essential. Its not, however, an issue of workmanship and easily added later.

You may like them, and use them, and good for you for doing so. However, I've got about 8 kilts currently hanging in my closet and not a one of them has these loops and I seem to get by just fine. So they are indeed superfluous, in the sense of not really being a neccesity.

Nanook also writes, of the lower strap on the right hip:

On modern lower sitting civilian or casual kilts they are without use but on traditional high rise kilts they are essential to proper fit.

I really have to disagree with you there. Not only is the lower strap not "essential to proper fit" it can actually have an adverse effect if fastened too tightly, making a crease across the front apron. Not having it allows the kilt apron to hang more natrually and move freely with the body when you stand or sit.

If you want to know why a lot of kilts today have them, read my blog post on the topic:
http://blog.albanach.org/2005/08/why...lt-straps.html

[Barb T]

I agree completely with Matt about the second strap. The only kilts that should have them are dancer's kilts, because it helps keep the apron edge from flying up when the dancer is dancing (particularly on a windy day). I try to talk guys out of having that second strap, because almost everyone pulls it tight, and the kilt doesn't look good across the front. Just the fact that the second strap needs to be buckled _loosely_ tells you right there that it's not doing anything structural in terms of holding the kilt on or making the kilt "fit properly".

And I do have to disagree about the hand stitching part. I would put my hand stitched pleats (where the stitching is completely invisible) up against anything that could be done by a machine. I have yet to see a machine that can stitch a pleat from the outside and not have any of the stitching show. Maybe there is a machine out there that I don't know about that can do this, but I'm skeptical that computer control is the answer here. (Note that I'm not talking about machine stitching pleats from the inside as Rocky does so well).

Barb

[Pour1Malt]

tae each his/her ain oan the 'third' strap an buckle...

personally, I would never wear a kilt wi' ainly twa straps...

it matters naught that it that it is no 'structural'...

it just lueks 'proper' tae me tae have three