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1st October 07, 04:10 PM
#1
 Originally Posted by ccga3359
It's true, I'm descended from Mel Gibson. Okay I walked out on one of his movies. Problem was I was at a drive-in theater.
And I thought that in Canada they spelt theatre correctly!
[B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]Reverend Earl Trefor the Sublunary of Kesslington under Ox, Venerable Lord Trefor the Unhyphenated of Much Bottom, Sir Trefor the Corpulent of Leighton in the Bucket, Viscount Mcclef the Portable of Kirkby Overblow.
Cymru, Yr Alban, Iwerddon, Cernyw, Ynys Manau a Lydaw am byth! Yng Nghiltiau Ynghyd!
(Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, Isle of Man and Brittany forever - united in the Kilts!)[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
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1st October 07, 04:11 PM
#2
 Originally Posted by McClef
And I thought that in Canada they spelt theatre correctly! 
Spell-check is American .
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1st October 07, 10:50 PM
#3
 Originally Posted by McClef
And I thought that in Canada they spelt theatre correctly! 
You mean cinema!
[B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]John Hart[/COLOR]
Owner/Kiltmaker - Keltoi
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1st October 07, 11:13 PM
#4
No, the Welsh did not wear kilts. The Cornish did not, the Bretons did not, the Manx did not, the Irish did not, and for that matter, neither did most of Scotland.
Though recognized today as the national dress of Scotland, it must be remembered that it was the dress of the SCOTTISH HIGHLANDER, not Lowlanders.
It is a nice idea, however, to consider the kilt as the evolution of Gaelic clothing. In some ways it is. It serves to reinforce the connections between Scottish and Irish culture, which were once very close. Celtic solidarity as a whole is a laudable ideal. Promoting similarities is always better than pointing out differences.
As for the Pictish being Germanic, this is the first I've heard of that theory. And I took Celtic Studies! The fact is, we don't know what the Picts were. Some speculate that they were Brythonic Celtic (akin to Welsh, etc.) which would certainly explain their quick assimilation into Gaelic culture under Coinneach Mac Ailpein. Others think they were indigenous, perhaps descendants of the Megalithic stone builders. They even lived in Ulster where they were called Cruithne. Who knows?
[B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]John Hart[/COLOR]
Owner/Kiltmaker - Keltoi
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1st October 07, 04:18 PM
#5
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2nd October 07, 10:14 AM
#6
 Originally Posted by Riverkilt
Perhaps this century will go down in history as the one where wise men throughout the Earth realized the comforts and freedom of kiltwearing.
Perhaps teachers in the year 2107 will challenge their students and ask if men ever wore pants like women do.
Brilliantly said!
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1st October 07, 05:49 PM
#7
 Originally Posted by Roan Carter
Kilts supposedly developed from a number of influences, but crystallized in the highlands. I consider them native Celtic dress, because they developed this way long after Ireland had its native dress banned by England, whereas before the banning Scotish and Irish dress were remarkably similar. It wouldn't be a stretch to therefore consider kilts a natural evelution of Gaelic fashion, hence the Irish desire to participate in kilt wearing.
Your argument, as I read it, is the kilt is a pan-celtic garment because had the English not banned Irish native dress, it would have developed the same way Scottish dress did. Interesting. but irrelevant since there is no way to prove it. Also Scottish and Irish culture did not develop the same way, similarly in some ways but definitely not the same, so it is likely that dress would not have evolved the same way either.
The desire of the Irish to wear kilts has more to do with modern ideas than any belief that the kilt would have been and Irish garment if the English hadn't interfered.
 Originally Posted by Roan Carter
Since then kilts have become identified with a broader "Pan-Celtic" identity, as opposed to the Germanic identity of Britain's past.
Oddly enough I don't hear any Scots talking about their Pan-Celtic kilts. The small exception might be large kilt suppliers looking to sell new markets.
Whether you wear a kilt as a new Celtic/ anti-English garment, or as a new way of showing your Welsh/Irish/Breton/Manx/Cornish/Galacian patriotism or culture, or even just for comfort that's fine, and as a Scotsman I say guid on ya. However, can we stop making up histories or what-might-have-happeneds to justify it. Who are you justifying it to, others or yourself. If you want to wear a kilt wear it with pride for whatever your reason, new or old. Unfortunately, your just going to have to live with the fact that history shows it was a Scottish garment, get over it, put your kilt on and deal.
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1st October 07, 07:25 PM
#8
 Originally Posted by Roan Carter
...one of the arguments for annexing Scotland was that its native people, Picts, were Germanic...
The Picts were most certainly not Germanic. That's a new one I'd not heard until now.
Last edited by Bryan; 1st October 07 at 09:39 PM.
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2nd October 07, 12:57 AM
#9
 Originally Posted by Bryan
The Picts were most certainly not Germanic. That's a new one I'd not heard until now.
I'm telling you man, it's always been about selling an idea to the people. Lol : p
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2nd October 07, 01:44 AM
#10
Nobody wore a kilt (as we know it) anywhere in the world (even in the Highlands). It is a modern invention, a way of making something elegant out of the shapeless all-enveloping garments worn all around the world to protect mankind from the cold.
Through the eons, how many people could afford yards/metres/ells of expensive cloth? How many people had the leisure to sit sewing carefully measure pleats -- or the wealth to pay someone else to do it? (Have you ever tried sewing by candle-light?)
Once mankind had learnt how to weave, then most peoples wrapped themselves in unsewn cloth to keep warm. In some areas, they later developed sewn-up sleeves and leg wrappings, in others they did not.
In more recent historic times, it was mainly the wealthy Chinese, Moghuls and Persians that wore sewn garments -- leggings for men & women (we have illustrations, whereas the Germanic hoards, for example left little visual evidence of their apparel), and the prestige of their civilizations led other people to borrow their style of clothing.
Likewise in the 20th century, when the Europeans colonized much of the world, the most ambitious locals imitated their clothing, while the poorer peasants continued wearing whatever they had always worn.
Flowing garments (ie: skirted rather than bifurcated) are still worn all around the world, now side by side with western-style leg-tubes, and the two styles tend to be a social status markers.
Nowhere but in Scotland did anyone decide to sew down the pleats into a tailor-made -- and handsome -- garment. So, if sewn-down pleats are the defining mark of a kilt, there is no evidence that any other Celts wore the kilt, but they certainly wore long tunics and cloaks -- like everyone else.
Martin
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