Kilt Go Braugh? A cultural/historical question

[wscottmac]

First -- to the Mods: thanks so much for reinstating this thread. I had absolutely no intention of starting a political or religious debate. I was just curious what folks (esp. over in Ireland/England/Scotland) see as the UNIFYING bonds between the Irish and Scottish, how that fits in with the English, and the historical reasons for Scottish cultural participation in St. Patty's Day. It's a very interesting subject to me (coming from Ulster Scot ancestors), and I'd imagine, to others on this board. Like you said, this does steer close to some dangerous waters, but it isn't my intention to bring any of that into this discussion.

Here's my thought process: I know I like wearing the kilt on St. Patty's Day. Love hearing the 'pipes and drinking Guiness. In my gut I kinda feel like St. Patty's (here in the US) has maybe become (like so many other things) a watered down, Marketing driven production. Like - some Marketing exec. back in the 1950's said, "Hey, ya know, we could throw some kilted pipers in that parade, huh? It's all kinda Celtic-like, right" --- and, that it just stuck.

I'm really looking for other folk's thoughts/history on good LEGITIMATE (and positive) historical reasons for Scottish cultural participation in St. Patty's Day, and other unifying bonds b/t the Scots, Irish, and English.

Another way to state this may be, "What thoughts do you personally have when you don your kilt on March 17th?"


MKFarkus - thanks for taking the time to summarize that history. It was a good refresher, and a good jumping off point for this discussion. I appreciate it.

[Mael Coluim]

Another way to state this may be, "What thoughts do you personally have when you don your kilt on March 17th?"
.

Before there was a Scotland or Ireland or England; there was the Kingdom of Dalraida. Dalraida included lands both in the north of Ireland and the west of Scotland. The peoples considered the sea between them as their highway. It was these people the Romans called the Scotti that the name Scotland was derived.

My clan Malcolm/MacCallum hails from the Poltalloch peninsula of Argyll. Within this area is the ancient fort of Dunadd where the King of the eastern Kingdom of Dalraida reigned. Legend has it that the Irish St. Columba when searching for a place in ‘Scotland’ to establish his abbey was given/directed to the Isle of Iona. (This occurred in the 6th century, a century after St. Patrick came to Ireland.) The name Malcolm/MacCallum/ Mael Coluim means follower of St. Columba.

When I put on my Malcolm tartan kilt on St. Patrick’s Day I think of this common heritage.

Duntrune is the background - fresh from rowing the 'Colmcille' from Ireland!

[beowulf67]

Another way to state this may be, "What thoughts do you personally have when you don your kilt on March 17th?"

Same as always.."D@*N, I look good!"

[McFarkus]

If it veers off into political/religious debate, it will be removed. So please give your responses to this thread some extra consideration before submitting them.

When it disappeared last night, I thought I might have done something wrong. I tried to keep the religion and politics very neutral and general, but it's hard to tell the story without some reference to it.

[beloitpiper]

CE (that's the PC term for AD - CE=Christian Era AD=Anno Domini -in the year of our Lord).

CE means "common era", while BCE means "before common era". Same dates, different labeling

One of the 'kingdoms' was that of Dal Riata which had territory in both Ireland and Scotland. And there was also a King of the Scots (Beginning I think with Fergus Mor) - they were always Kings of the Scots, not of Scotland (think Mary, Queen of Scots) - kings of the people not the land, probably because they moved from Ireland to Scotland.

While Fergus Mór was the legendary ruler of Dál Riata, I'm not sure it wold be correct to say that he was the ruler of the Scots. I'm more inclined to name Cináed mac Ailpín (Kenneth MacAlpin) the first King of the Scots.

[Archangel]

While Fergus Mór was the legendary ruler of Dál Riata, I'm not sure it wold be correct to say that he was the ruler of the Scots. I'm more inclined to name Cináed mac Ailpín (Kenneth MacAlpin) the first King of the Scots.

Okay, this will end up being a mess but you're essentially right. Alpin was recognized by contemporaries as the first king.

The previous kings fell under the Irish system and were not really like what we would call king today. They would be lower level kings and Alpin rose above them (in battle, treachery, wealth, whatever). He was a Pictish king and moved the political structure to the east of Scotland. He brought about (or fulfilled) a different concept of kingship.

As usual, don't jump all over this. I'm compressing entire books into one paragraph.

[beloitpiper]

As usual, don't jump all over this. I'm compressing entire books into one paragraph.

Just a friendly peer review. History this old is blurry at best.

[slohairt]

Irish pubs, bagpipes, St. Patty's Day, kilts, Guiness... These things all go extremely well together, and are often presented in concert. Picture a Highland Pipes and Drums band (clearly Scottish, plausibly mostly Presbyterians) marching on St. Patty's Day (an Irish Catholic celebration). In my gut, and the back of my head, I can make sense of this, but I'm wondering about the cultural/historical background of Scots and Irish culture becoming sorta -- comfortably overlapped? And, how does the culture of Mother England factor into the equation?

I have my own theories/historical interpretation for this phenomenon, but I'd love to hear other's thoughts -- especially our brothers over in Ireland/Scotland/England. Ham? Pour1Malt?

Since you put it as a cultural/historical question (without being political!) I'll answer as best as I can (without being political).

Overlapping of Irish and Highland Scottish culture is perfectly understandable; they are both Gaelic cultures. For much of their history, their respective cultures differed little, whether it be language, dress, etc. Things changed through outside influences (Lowlanders, the English, etc.), as is often the case. In fact, throughout history the Scottish Highlander identified himself more closely with his Irish brethren, than with Lowlanders. Take these Irish language terms as an example: Gael Éireannach (Irish), Gael Mheiriceánach (Irish American), Gael Albanach (Scottish Highlander), Gael Ceanadach (Irish Canadian). You'll note the frequency of the term "Gael." This meant, traditionally, that no matter where you came from you were still a Gael.

You're right, many Scots are Presbyterian, however many Highlanders are Catholic. St. Patrick's Day today is not really considered a Catholic holiday in Ireland, nor is it anywhere else. You'll find the Northern Irish Unionist/Protestant people honour St. Patrick just as much!

I wouldn't say England is the "mother" of these nations by any means, so I don't really see how English culture factors in at all. They are/were of a foreign culture with different customs and traditions than the Gaels.

[Ozman1944]

Mkfarkus, that was great! concise and a good job of tippy toe through the hazards of religion & politics. Very difficult as both played an integral part in Gaelic/Celt cultural history - and still does for that matter. Thanks to the 'thread gods' who have allowed this to remain on the Forum. We are not worthy!!!.

[McFarkus]

Mkfarkus, that was great! concise and a good job of tippy toe through the hazards of religion & politics. Very difficult as both played an integral part in Gaelic/Celt cultural history - and still does for that matter. Thanks to the 'thread gods' who have allowed this to remain on the Forum. We are not worthy!!!.