Kilted Etymologies

**Bugbear** · 13th January 08, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Ted Crocker

You can sure seddle an argument with the OED, and if they still want to argue, you can smak them with one of the volumes. LOL! Have fun Mark.

I just realized that you might be looking at an OED on your computer or on line. Smacking someone with a volume of the OED wouldn't make sense in that case. Back in the day, LOL, the OED was several volumes of print. I kind of remember when they started coming out with software versions, but I was never able to use one. I would always have to go to the university lybrary with someone to look up stuff and read. Must be nice.

**Paul Henry** · 14th January 08, 03:05 AM

slightly off topic I know, but I think of interest!!
historically at least

Child = 1
Childer = 2
Children = 3 or more

**TheKiltedWonder** · 14th January 08, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by paulhenry

slightly off topic I know, but I think of interest!!
historically at least

Child = 1
Childer = 2
Children = 3 or more

Interesting indeed! I've never seen that, but I think if I remember correctly, Old English had a dual verb form used for two people in addition to the plural form, so it would make sense that they might have a seperate dual form for the nouns.

**Galician** · 14th January 08, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by Crusty

One possible origin I've heard for "brogue" as an accent, is something to the effect of "his accent was so heavy it sounded like he had a brogue in his mouth." I couldn't tell you where I read that, so don't quote me on it.

As a student, I heard that explanation from older Irish-Americans, along with VERY clear advice that using the term was offensive to them.

Originally Posted by TheKiltedWonder

if I remember correctly, Old English had a dual verb form used for two people in addition to the plural form, so it would make sense that they might have a seperate dual form for the nouns.

Is it related in any way to the dual voice in ancient Greek?

Originally Posted by TheKiltedWonder

"the Quelt..a small Part of the Plaid is set in Folds and girt round the Waste to make of it a Petticoat..."

For those of us old enough to remember petticoats as a standard woman's garment, this is quite an image!!

**Galician** · 14th January 08, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Pleater

That explains why I use hosen as the plural of hose. My father's mother spole a rather archaic English having been brought up in the wilds of Derbyshire and never went to school. We lived with my fathers parents from my being two years old until I was seven.

It would be fascinating to have a recording of her speaking. Did your family ever do that?

**Galician** · 14th January 08, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by TheKiltedWonder

I have total dialect jealousy now. That's a really old plural form (the -en) ending but it's so rare (used with "oxen" and um..."oxen")

Uhhh, wouldn't "man" and "men" fall into this declension pattern?

**Riverkilt** · 14th January 08, 08:49 AM

And as the language continues to evolve we now call kilts "babe magnets."

Ron

**TheKiltedWonder** · 14th January 08, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Galician

Uhhh, wouldn't "man" and "men" fall into this declension pattern?

Good guess, but nope! This change is due to umlaut (Any German students ay be confused since the dots over ä, ö, ü are also called umlauts). To very much under-describe it, umlaut is vowel change. In German and English (and maybe other languages) it is used to mark some plurals: Man -> men. Mann -> Männer ( pronounced: Menn-er or Menn-uh); Mouse -> Mice. Maus -> Mäuse (pronounced: Moy-suh).

But brethren is the former plural of brother. It's rather archaic today though.

**TheKiltedWonder** · 14th January 08, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Galician

Is it related in any way to the dual voice in ancient Greek?

I would bet that it does. I don't think dual lasted very long in English, as we got rid of a lot of a lot of morphology inherited from Proto-Germanic and ultimately from Proto-Indo-European (PIE). Since Greek is a PIE language (yummm!), I wouldn't be surprised if PIE had a dual form that some of its daughter languages inherited.

Of course, as a linguist I try to never give a straight answer, so it could be that these two uses of a dual form arose independently in both languages.

**Woodsman** · 14th January 08, 09:43 PM

This verb is classified as "apparently of Scandanavian origin" on account of Danish kilte meaning "to tuck up", ON kilting "skirt".

Being part Swedish I was always interested in the Scandanavian origins for kilt. But I suspect it was more rooted in a woman's skirt than in a gentleman's kilt. A blue and yellow Swedish tartan would be nice.