Celtic Crest

[BoldHighlander]

It is easy to overlook the "blue strap"-- probably neither the vendor nor the manufacturer knew that blue straps are a no-no. What can't be overlooked is the name embroidered under the clansman's badge. That's just tacky. (But then in my opinion blazer badges are tacky, so this embroidered name thing just compounds the offense as far as I'm concerned.)

As far as the Lyon's opinion regarding the display of polychromatic clansman's badges is concerned... see the headline above.

Thank you

I think a lot of vendors do not know then that this is a "no-no" as you & Frank have explained. I've seen many such blazer crests (some without the name tag) and clan banners with blue in the strap.

[BoldHighlander]

I'm in the process of having a new tartan banner made for our clan booth, and I received the following from the maker:

I use the Book of Crest for my source and have other artwork which has been provided by the different clans. I have not done a Mackay, but I do have the artwork which is the dexter arm erect, couped at the elbow, the hand grasping a dagger (also erect). The wreath colors are azure (blue) and silver.

Okay, so then it wouldn't be proper to display the blue within the strap (what she refers to as a wreath), even with silver instead of gold?

[macwilkin]

I'm in the process of having a new tartan banner made for our clan booth, and I received the following from the maker:

I use the Book of Crest for my source and have other artwork which has been provided by the different clans. I have not done a Mackay, but I do have the artwork which is the dexter arm erect, couped at the elbow, the hand grasping a dagger (also erect). The wreath colors are azure (blue) and silver.

Okay, so then it wouldn't be proper to display the blue within the strap (what she refers to as a wreath), even with silver instead of gold?

This is from Lady Saltoun's web site; she is the Chief of the name and arms of Fraser:

http://www.fraserchief.co.uk/heraldry.html

If you scroll down, you'll see a banner in blue and silver.

And the wreath is not the strap, btw. The wreath (twisted silk) sets above the helm, and below the crest.

Regards,

Todd

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I'm in the process of having a new tartan banner made for our clan booth, and I received the following from the maker:

I use the Book of Crest for my source and have other artwork which has been provided by the different clans. I have not done a Mackay, but I do have the artwork which is the dexter arm erect, couped at the elbow, the hand grasping a dagger (also erect). The wreath colors are azure (blue) and silver.

Okay, so then it wouldn't be proper to display the blue within the strap (what she refers to as a wreath), even with silver instead of gold?

The wreath (that twisted bit under the arm holding the dagger) needs to be blue and white (white is heraldic silver); the arm has to be "flesh toned" the dagger needs to have a silver blade and gold cross guard and pommel.

The Buckle and Strap needs to be something that will show up well against the dark Mackay tartan as well as contrast with the clan motto.

For what it's worth, I think the Clan Banner authorized by Lady Saltoun is really the best way to go as it is a far better display of "clan heraldry" than affixing the badge to a "tartan blanket".

[BoldHighlander]

This is from Lady Saltoun's web site; she is the Chief of the name and arms of Fraser:

http://www.fraserchief.co.uk/heraldry.html

If you scroll down, you'll see a banner in blue and silver.

And the wreath is not the strap, btw. The wreath (twisted silk) sets above the helm, and below the crest.

Regards,

Todd

Thank you gentlemen, like I've mentioned before I'm a novice when it comes to heraldry and I appreciate all the information that you provide to us

If I do have the banner made of tartan it will be the so called Ancient colors, a little bit lighter. And if possible I'll have the strap done in black.

Thanks again!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

This is all interesting, as I've never before heard it suggested that the clansman's crest badge shouldn't be displayed in color (thought at least one leaflet from the Lord Lyon's page suggests so!), as well as the prospcription agains the belt being blue.

I have always operated under the assumption that the belt was a different animal entirely from the garter used by the Order of the Garter, and since there was no color specified for the belt, it could be any color that the artists wishes.

I find it ironic that, when I have seen the crest depicted in color, the most common color has always been blue!

I also find it extremely odd that if we are not supposed to be showing the clansman's crest in color, that those same authorities would tell us that the belt can be any color other than blue. Are we to go about showing green, purple, brown and red belts, surrounding black and white line art crests???

~M

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Ok, so I was a little suspicious of the fact that there seemed to be contradictory rules regarding this whole color issue, and as the information presented came from "a pamphlet issued by Lord Lyon" that had been "reproduced on electric scotland," I thought I'd go right to the source and look for information on the Lord Lyon's own web site.

About the crest, as it should be displayed by clansmen:

It is correct for these people to wear their Chiefs Crest encircled with a strap and buckle bearing their Chief s Motto or Slogan. The strap and buckle is the sign of the clansman, and he demonstrates his membership of his Chiefs Clan by wearing his Chiefs Crest within it.

Note, no mention of color at all, one way or another. Granted, the information on the web site is pretty basic, and no doubt there is more thorough information available from them upon request.

The only mention I was able to find about the color of the belt specifically was in the guidelines for the Pinsel, which is the heraldic banner flown by a representative of the chief, when the chief is not present, and this is to show his crest within a belt of the "second livery color and buckle (Gold for full cheifs)."

[Highland Logan]

I have always operated under the assumption that the belt was a different animal entirely from the garter used by the Order of the Garter, and since there was no color specified for the belt, it could be any color that the artists wishes.

~M

It is a very different animal, however the clansmens badge was designed using the Order of The Garter as a template. In some of the older designs of the clansmens badge the end of the belt does not loop over the circlet, but through just as the Order. Fox-Davies had some issue with this when he wrote "A Complete Guide to Heraldy".

Frank

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Heraldry is full of conventions and contradictions. One of those conventions is that the strap is the second livery colour of the armiger (in this instance, the Chief). Now the contradiction occurs when the second livery colour is blue. In that instance the usual choice would be black, taking the next colour in order of precedence (red, blue, black, green, purple). But, if so desired, you could stick with blue.

Now for all you heraldic hair-splitters: the "livery colours" are derived from the arms, with the first depicted colour in the wreath always being the first named metal (gold or silver, in that order). So even if the shield is blue charged with a gold thingiemabob, the liveries would be depicted on the wreath under the crest as gold and blue.

And that means that the Buckle and Strap would either be blue or black.

[Sketraw]

Like Frank I would agree that the crest in a Belt & Buckle should only be displayed in B/W as for the reason he gives it represents the Clansman/woman badge. The use of colour has crept in I believe through Bucket Shop Heraldry.

The crest depicted within the badge, as we all know I am sure, is that of the chief and it is his personal property and the badge is a way a person can show his allegiance to the chief. It is a badge and should be depicted as that in B/W.

Because the chief or an armiger for that matter can display his crest outwith a circle and in colour it is incorrect to transpose this into a coloured strap and buckle with coloured crest within. It may look nice but it is meant to represent the badge.

Will it stop people selling it in colour..probably NOT...but as responsible Clans Folk we should not condone its display in this way and perhaps when appropriate point this out to others.