Kirkin' of the Tartan

[Paul Henry]

The word "kirk" probably comes from the Norse , eg, Swedish "kryka" but Kirk is usually used as the everyday name for "the Church of Scotland"

[CPOBull@Comcast.net]

slainte

It has come to my attention, principally through reading and very informal research that the practice of kirkin' the tartan was likewise a practice among the Highlanders and the Irish Catholic who had intermarried and hid oput in the Highlands, being principally Jacobites, all. [In the Highlands today there are still strong intermarriage histories between Scots and Irish Catholic. one cannot walk in the upper Highlands and not hear the very distinct Irish Gaelic brogue blending with the Scots burr; it is musical] There is an old song Mo Ghile Mear [My gallant Darling] a song about Prince Charles Edward Stewart of whom the irish Catholics were great supporters and who fought at Culloden moor on his behalf. It is still sung today, especially with passion in some "Republican circles" So it has come to me by inference that this practice existed among them too, though to much lesser degree. i have referred to this in an epic poem I penned some years ago. i make no pitch here; I am principally an historian in this.

dia duit
CPO Bull
Anchor's Away/Semper Fi

[gilmore]

slainte

It has come to my attention, principally through reading and very informal research that the practice of kirkin' the tartan was likewise a practice among the Highlanders and the Irish Catholic who had intermarried and hid oput in the Highlands, being principally Jacobites, all. ...

What is your source for this?

As far as anyone has been able to discover heretofore based on reliable information, kirkin of the tartan is an American invention of some 60 odd years ago that has not been done in Scotland.

[macwilkin]

slainte

It has come to my attention, principally through reading and very informal research that the practice of kirkin' the tartan was likewise a practice among the Highlanders and the Irish Catholic who had intermarried and hid oput in the Highlands, being principally Jacobites, all. [In the Highlands today there are still strong intermarriage histories between Scots and Irish Catholic. one cannot walk in the upper Highlands and not hear the very distinct Irish Gaelic brogue blending with the Scots burr; it is musical] There is an old song Mo Ghile Mear [My gallant Darling] a song about Prince Charles Edward Stewart of whom the irish Catholics were great supporters and who fought at Culloden moor on his behalf. It is still sung today, especially with passion in some "Republican circles" So it has come to me by inference that this practice existed among them too, though to much lesser degree. i have referred to this in an epic poem I penned some years ago. i make no pitch here; I am principally an historian in this.

dia duit
CPO Bull
Anchor's Away/Semper Fi

To echo Gilmore's post, if you have reliable sources that document such a claim, a number of us in the Scottish-American community would love to see them.

All of the evidence so far credits the late Dr. Peter Marshall, pastor of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church and Chaplain of the US Senate with devising the Kirkin' ceremony during the Second World War as a way to raise funds for war relief.

Also, just as a factual point, not all Highlanders were Roman Catholic; many of those who favoured the Jacobite cause were Episcopalians, as the Episcopal Church was being persecuted by the Kirk in the years after the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

Regards,

Todd

[ThistleDown]

slainte

It has come to my attention, principally through reading and very informal research that the practice of kirkin' the tartan was likewise a practice among the Highlanders and the Irish Catholic who had intermarried and hid oput in the Highlands, being principally Jacobites, all. [In the Highlands today there are still strong intermarriage histories between Scots and Irish Catholic. one cannot walk in the upper Highlands and not hear the very distinct Irish Gaelic brogue blending with the Scots burr; it is musical] There is an old song Mo Ghile Mear [My gallant Darling] a song about Prince Charles Edward Stewart of whom the irish Catholics were great supporters and who fought at Culloden moor on his behalf. It is still sung today, especially with passion in some "Republican circles" So it has come to me by inference that this practice existed among them too, though to much lesser degree. i have referred to this in an epic poem I penned some years ago. i make no pitch here; I am principally an historian in this.

dia duit
CPO Bull
Anchor's Away/Semper Fi

Wherever did you get that (mis)information? I've been living in both the Scottish Highlands and in Western Canada for almost 70 years and have never heard of a "kirkin' of the tartan" in either place. For five of those years I lived in Kilkenny and there tartan for sure was not worn or carried to the church at any time!

The whole Jacobite thing is a non-issue in Scotland today. As is the religious stuff that some want to stick in the middle of it. There were Jacobites who were Protestant in the 17th and early 18th Centuries, and there were Hanoverians who were Catholic.

There was a bit of confusion between religion and politics then, it is true, but there is no such now -- in Scotland.

[ThistleDown]

Perhaps a bit more on this because I am a tad heated under the collar (my apologies to all of you).

The largest grave on Drumossie Moor contains the bits and pieces of Clan Chattan folk. I have more than one ancestor who's dust is mingled there. They may well all have died for what they believed in -- who's to know now? -- but I have other ancestors who absented themselves from that place, also for reasons just as valid but just as unknown today.

"Jacobite" is not an active word in Highland Scotland. We live in a 21stC world with a wonderful history, if fully understood. Our great-grandfathers' lives were not yesteryear's myths come to an end in 1746 and yet still existing as though they had not. We live in a vibrant and very real society that has comfortably evolved into what it is.

[Jock Scot]

Oh my word, how tired am I of the biscuit tin,myth laden,ill-informed view of Scottish history,particularly when its all viewed through rose tinted glasses! I suppose Holliwood has not helped with making our history any more accurate either.Ok the "Wild West" and other places have suffered the same treatment as well, but am I sick sorry and tired of the absolute nonsense that the tourist industry of the last hundred years has dished out to unwitting customers who have visited here.Is it going to get any better? I doubt it!Sorry every one,but I just had to get all this out of my system. Accurate and factual history is important, but tomorrow is even more so and unless and until all this quasi historical clap trap is seen for what it is, we,Scotland, has and will have ever more trouble with the future. In fact it is to Scotland's credit that we have managed to get this far! Sorry every one.Mods If you don't like this, then please delete it.

[Scotus]

Jock Scot

Could you just say what you really mean?

I think you have to disassociate Scottish-American culture with actual Scotland. You live there and experience the day to day, modern life of Scotland. When Americans of Scottish descent, who live thousands of miles away from Scotland, wish to celebrate their Scottish ancestry, they do so by emphasizing the myths and stories that have grown up around the actual history of the place. This sometimes means romanticizing actual events. For Americans, this is what makes history a bit more colorful, if not altogether factual. From an American point of view, I think it's quite harmless and good for the soul. I know that from a Scottish point of view it must be quite irritating. Try to be patient with us.

BTW, as a Roman Catholic, I had never heard of "Kirkin'" until joining this forum.

[Jock Scot]

BULL.The only Irish accents heard in this part of western Scotland are from Irish holiday makers or Irish people who have made their home here and their accents should not be confused with the local Scots one.Not all Jacobites were Catholics either. Whilst I don't claim to be an expert on religous matters, I have never in nearly 70 years of living,one way or another, in the Western Highlands heard of kirkin the tartan until I joined this website about a year ago.Now I am not for one minute suggesting that it does not happen here,but what I am suggesting is that it does not seem to feature very highly on the church scene,very far from it in my experiance!

I know you are obviousely very interested in the historical and cultural aspects of the Jacobite era in the highlands,but there are many Highland Scots who do not see those times in the same light as you do and there are many highland Scots whose ancestors fought for the Jacobite cause, who rue the day that the Stewarts ever walked this earth.Not what you want to hear,perhaps, but nevertheless true.

[BoldHighlander]

I know you are obviousely very interested in the historical and cultural aspects of the Jacobite era in the highlands,but there are many Highland Scots who do not see those times in the same light as you do and there are many highland Scots whose ancestors fought for the Jacobite cause, who rue the day that the Stewarts ever walked this earth.Not what you want to hear,perhaps, but nevertheless true.

Aye Jock, the Mackays (for instance) were no real fans of the Stewarts, being a Protestant clan & feeling the heavy hand when the Stewarts were in charge, they went out for the House of Hanover instead.

During the '45 there were 18 Independent Companies, allocated as follows:
Macleods (Skye & Harris) - 4
Mackenzies (Earl of Seaforth) - 3
Macdonalds (Sleat) - 2
Sutherlands - 2
Mackays (Lord Reay) - 2
Grants - 1
Macleods (Assynt) - 1
Munros - 1
Rosses - 1
Town of Inverness - 1
(and lest we forget the Argyll militia & Loudon's (64th) Highlanders as well).

There were a number of clans with divided loyalties as well (Gordons & Mackintoshes amongst them).
I've once read that 1/3 of the population were Jacobite, 1/3 were supporters of the Hanoverians, and 1/3 just wanted to be left alone (this mirrors what was written about the division of the population during our own American War of Independence by the way).

And that is as political as I dare go
I now return you to the subject at hand...