kilt history question

[ChattanCat]

Horseback riding was the downfall of easily made and comfortable attire? Hmm, makes me think that women were not allowed to ride horses, or was not considered a female thing to do. Therefore they kept the skirt and dress and did not have to do the horseback riding and stayed with the comfortable un-bifurcated attire...

[xena]

Hello All,

An acquaintance of mine is doing her PhD on this very subject. That is to say the history of garments and dress and why men wear trousers and women wear skirts and dresses. Her argument is that the anatomy of men and women is different and as such we are (in general) all wearing the wrong garments - men have dangly bits and should be in a wrap around garment; women do not and should be in trousers.

She believes that there was some cataclysmic event which caused a domino effect and forced men into long hose and then trousers. She tells me that she has eliminated war and warfare and is now looking at religion or some form of pandemic to be the cause. It seems that the heart of the matter comes down to western education, which in turn points to religion.

When she next comes down to eat me out of house and home I will pump her for more information.

Regards

Chas

Yes, it strikes me as riding horses would be the main reason. Why exactly would she have ruled out war and warfare?

Religion as a source of pants on men doesn't make a whole lot of sense, considering the predominant European religion at the time was Christianity whose clergy and monastics all wore unbifurbicated cassocks and similar vestments. The only effect Christianity would have had on clothing was a direction towards modesty (and when and where the Christianity was not healthy - a sense of shame about one's body - but don't blame Christianity for that! That's off kilter Christianity!).

Currently, the fashion with cassocks is to wear trousers underneath them, but there is iconographic evidence that this was not always so.

For what it's worth, when I wear my cassock, it's about 50/50 whether I'm wearing tartan flannel trousers or a Thrifty SWK Kilt.

[fortcollinsjerry]

I ask this because as I was doing laundry yesterday, I realized on our Egyptian wall carvings it shows the Pharaoh's wearing simple skirts. SC.

Many years ago I was visiting the Egyptian display at the Toledo Museum of Art (which has a huge Egyptian collection) and came across an original "skirt". I was surprised to see that it was not a solid fabric garment as in a kilt or skirt. Rather is was a piece of leather that had been sliced and pierced in rows of hundreds and hundreds of tiny vertical slits - perhaps as small as a quarter inch long, to expand it (a lot like expanded steel mesh used in fences and steps) so it would fit around the hips of the wearer. When I saw that the penny dropped and I realized what I was looking at in many hyrogliphics where the King was draped with this hip garment.

Modesty and exposure was not a consideration at that period.

[fortcollinsjerry]

Yes, it strikes me as riding horses would be the main reason. Why exactly would she have ruled out war and warfare?

Religion as a source of pants on men doesn't make a whole lot of sense, considering the predominant European religion at the time was Christianity whose clergy and monastics all wore unbifurbicated cassocks and similar vestments.

I have no erudite or historical evidence to this opinion, but since the church controlled all part of civiliation "back then" it would make sence to me that the church would have forbidden non-religions to wear a garment that made them appear similar to the clergy. If everyone could wear a cassock what would separate the clergy from the lay? They had to have something that made them special.

[chasem]

Currently, the fashion with cassocks is to wear trousers underneath them, but there is iconographic evidence that this was not always so.

There is a scripture somewhere in the Bible - the reference escapes me - that refers to priests in the OT time being careful of walking up stairs so as to not expose themselves to those lower than themselves. Vague, I know, but similar idea.

[Cherub]

Horseback riding was the downfall of easily made and comfortable attire? Hmm, makes me think that women were not allowed to ride horses, or was not considered a female thing to do. Therefore they kept the skirt and dress and did not have to do the horseback riding and stayed with the comfortable un-bifurcated attire...

that was why the side saddle was developed so that women could ride in their long skirts.

[Bugbear]

Many years ago I was visiting the Egyptian display at the Toledo Museum of Art (which has a huge Egyptian collection) and came across an original "skirt". I was surprised to see that it was not a solid fabric garment as in a kilt or skirt. Rather is was a piece of leather that had been sliced and pierced in rows of hundreds and hundreds of tiny vertical slits - perhaps as small as a quarter inch long, to expand it (a lot like expanded steel mesh used in fences and steps) so it would fit around the hips of the wearer. When I saw that the penny dropped and I realized what I was looking at in many hyrogliphics where the King was draped with this hip garment.

Modesty and exposure was not a consideration at that period.

That's interesting.

[Galician]

I have no erudite or historical evidence to this opinion, but since the church controlled all part of civiliation "back then" it would make sence to me that the church would have forbidden non-religions to wear a garment that made them appear similar to the clergy. If everyone could wear a cassock what would separate the clergy from the lay? They had to have something that made them special.

Actually, it's the other way around. The cassock and monastic tunic are themselves derived from the tunic worn by all men of status in ancient days. Religion being the conservative force that it is, the clergy kept wearing the robe, while general fashion moved away from it.

I read a book published in the 1860's, in which a Englishman describes his travels in Europe and his (Protestant) take on Roman Catholic religious institutions. He was amazed, early one day, to realize that the shepherds he had spied far way turned out to be Friars Minor, as they approached. It made him realize the similarity of the attire.

Currently, the fashion with cassocks is to wear trousers underneath them, but there is iconographic evidence that this was not always so.

Very true. One of my high schools teachers studied in Rome while he was a seminarian. He told us how he got into trouble with some Italian priests while he was traveling on the train, when they noticed that he had pants under his cassock. That was a big no no in Italy as recently(?) as fifty years ago!

There is a scripture somewhere in the Bible - the reference escapes me - that refers to priests in the OT time being careful of walking up stairs so as to not expose themselves to those lower than themselves. Vague, I know, but similar idea.

Absolutely correct and on target. Egyptian priests (like many other Egyptians in those days of no a/c) were not concerned with exposing their body. I wonder if the fact that the pagan priests were normally castrated had anything to do with their lack of this concern.

[Leprechaun 91]

Many years ago I was visiting the Egyptian display at the Toledo Museum of Art (which has a huge Egyptian collection) and came across an original "skirt". I was surprised to see that it was not a solid fabric garment as in a kilt or skirt. Rather is was a piece of leather that had been sliced and pierced in rows of hundreds and hundreds of tiny vertical slits - perhaps as small as a quarter inch long, to expand it (a lot like expanded steel mesh used in fences and steps) so it would fit around the hips of the wearer. When I saw that the penny dropped and I realized what I was looking at in many hyrogliphics where the King was draped with this hip garment.

Modesty and exposure was not a consideration at that period.

It sounds like they were wearing the mesh that is wrapped around my avocado.

[kiltedwolfman]

There are other religeous references, I think in the Pentecostal strain of the faith that states that women are forbid to dress like men. And with trousers of various types gaining popularity women were left enjoying the comfortable benefit of dresses and skirts alike. At least for those that followed that line of faith that is.