A question regarding a clan badge

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 8th February 09, 09:03 PM

Rowing in on this... "slughorns" were used to replace mottoes on badges produced by a firm trying to sidestep copyright issues... The motto on the buckle and strap, and the crest, form a single heraldic design which is copyrightable as a product. The unscrupulous have been known to lift a design from books (Way and Squire are currently the most sinned against) and put them into production. ALL of the line art in W&S is copyright by Romilly Squire of Rubislaw and he has licensed it exclusively to Gaelic Themes. A very weak argument was put forward that by using the slughorn it was a different design... as the other two major elements (buckle and strap, and the crest itself) were unchanged from the copied work, the company was ordered to "cease and desist".

Whether this badge is one of the knock-offs, or a knock-off of a knock-off, I can't say. But as Sandy has pointed out it is definitely NOT the badge of a clansman.

**Sheep In Wolf's Clothing** · 9th February 09, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

Rowing in on this... "slughorns" were used to replace mottoes on badges produced by a firm trying to sidestep copyright issues... The motto on the buckle and strap, and the crest, form a single heraldic design which is copyrightable as a product. The unscrupulous have been known to lift a design from books (Way and Squire are currently the most sinned against) and put them into production. ALL of the line art in W&S is copyright by Romilly Squire of Rubislaw and he has licensed it exclusively to Gaelic Themes. A very weak argument was put forward that by using the slughorn it was a different design... as the other two major elements (buckle and strap, and the crest itself) were unchanged from the copied work, the company was ordered to "cease and desist".

Wheter this badge is one of the knock-offs, or a knock-off of a knock-off, I can't say. But as Sandy has pointed out it is definitely NOT the badge of a clansman.

Fair enough. I have yet to have anyone respond to my e-mails. If I send you a picture of the numourous hallmarks on the back of the item can you let me know if it is one from this company. The auction I bought it from dated it from 1950.
Thanks,
Sara

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 9th February 09, 07:45 AM

I know very little about silver hallmarks! If you say it dates from the 1950s, I'll take your word for it. However, as it does not conform to the standard set forth for clan badges by your Chief, or the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs, it isn't a pukka clansman's badge. Whether you choose to wear it (or not) is up to you.

**Sheep In Wolf's Clothing** · 9th February 09, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

I know very little about silver hallmarks! If you say it dates from the 1950s, I'll take your word for it. However, as it does not conform to the standard set forth for clan badges by your Chief, or the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs, it isn't a pukka clansman's badge. Whether you choose to wear it (or not) is up to you.

I don't know if it does or not..I am still looking for answers. The web site for The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs states the same paragraph as the Court of Lord Lyon (as I cited above).I have emailed some people from a few Heraldry societies and Clan officials I know, to ask the question and have drafted a letter to the Court of Lord Lyon. I am just really interested in finding the answer.
I just thought that the company you referenced above might have had a company stamp, I know a few do, as I can clearly see them on other pieces I have.
Thanks for your help,
Sara

**Panache** · 9th February 09, 09:54 AM

Per Sheep in Wolf's Clothing request I have split this discussion regarding the particulars of Sara's cap badge to its own thread in the Tartan and Heraldry forum.

Cheers

Jamie

**thescot** · 9th February 09, 10:43 AM

I don't know beans about all the details of the badge and whether it's "regular" (in non-herladric terms), so I am not entitiled to an opionion. But I would like to comment on the original statement about weight and size.

I have worn a "proper" clan badge on my bonnets for many years, and I have always lamented the weight of the heavy pewter badges. They tend to pull the side of the bonnet down in a most unattractive manner causing it to look more like a soft acadmic cap than a balmoral bonnet. I noticed that the bonnet worn without the regulation badge looked better.

So . . . I have begun searching out lighter badges to wear. I have replaced the old heavy USMC badge by don McKee like this

with a much lighter nodel like this

I have done the same with several other badges, both clan and other types whenever possible. I have a very nice Sottish Rite bade in thinner silver, and I am searching for a Donnachaidh badge in the same weight. I think they're available only at a much greater cost than I am willing to pay.

I'll try to get some pictures to illustrate the difference later. (I am working on a montage of all my bonnets, tams, and glengarries for a later posting.)

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 9th February 09, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by thescot

The downside, if there is one, is that at a distance of even a few feet your "light weight" USMC cap badge looks very much like the circlet used to surround the crest of an armiger.

**Monkey@Arms** · 9th February 09, 04:22 PM

The picture above depicts a USMC hat badge, designed and marketed for the USA. Seriously, how many people in this country (besides a couple of members of this forum) would know or care whether it resembles "a circlet used to surround the crest of an armiger."

Best regards,

Jake

**macwilkin** · 9th February 09, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Monkey@Arms

The picture above depicts a USMC hat badge, designed and marketed for the USA. Seriously, how many people in this country (besides a couple of members of this forum) would know or care whether it resembles "a circlet used to surround the crest of an armiger."

Best regards,

Jake

As a student of heraldry, Jake, I don't care for your tone here. There are a number of people, such as the Society of Scottish Armigers and others who "know and care" about heraldry.

I recognise many in this country may be unaware of the nuances of heraldry, but I see that as a chance for education, especially people attending Scottish cultural events. After all, if we Americans are going to "play Scotsmen", then we should at least be aware of and respect the traditions, such as heraldic devices.

I think Rathdown made an interesting observation that shouldn't be discounted so easily.

Todd

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 9th February 09, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by JSFMACLJR

If the crest badges come from Scotland a quick note to the Procurator Fiscal of the Court of the Lord Lyon might work, as the erroneous badges are illegal in the Kingdom.

I have noticed that the clansman's badge of my own clan, MacQuarrie, is most frequently seen with the slughorn/battle cry on it ("An T'Arm Breac Dearg"). Less frequently seen is the actual motto of "Turris Fortis Mihi Deus."

What is odd to me is that we carry two lines of crest badges on our museum gift shop. One made in Scotland, one made in the USA. The Scottish-made badges have the slughorn. The American-made ones have the motto!