Ancient Order of Hibernians

[O'Callaghan]

Remember, though, that you're talking about the leadership of the United Irishmen, and not the whole picture. Sympathy for the United Irishmen declined after '98 rebellion, and most Protestant Ulstermen remained loyal to the Crown. One or two Presbyterians in the ranks does not mean that all Ulster Presbyterians were United Irishmen.

Americans tend to view Irish history through romantic lenses, but if your people were Ulster-Scots Protestants from the SC Backcountry, I wouldn't expect them to want to willingly join the AOH.

Perhaps this discussion would be better seved in PMs, as we are skirting forum rules regarding religious discussions and discussions of "The Troubles".

Regards,

Todd

I don't know about Robert Emmett, but Wolfe Tone and Napper Tandy weren't Presbyterians (although they were indeed Protestant, not Catholic) and nor were they Ulstermen. AFAIK they were Church of Ireland, which means Anglican, or what Americans would call Episcopalian, and they were from Dublin, which of course is in Leinster, not Ulster.

OTOH, I'm no historian, but I believe they lived at a time when Catholics could not own land or enter a profession, not too long before such laws were repealed. Some at least of their group, if not to say all, could have been Protestant by convenience. More likely, though, it would have been their grandfathers or suchlike that made this decision, as these laws had been in force for some time at that point. They were the intelligencia, and their followers who had no land or learned profession to sacrifice were mostly Catholics.

I also read a little about the AOH and also concluded that I am not eligible, not being a Catholic. In my case, however, I am not of Ulster Scots descent, I am descended from the 'right' people, but they went to England and married into English protestants, and rather more English agnostics. I have to go back generations to get to anyone who went to ANY church, if there really were any, LOL! Well, I have this one uncle, but he converted very late in life. Americans talk about tracing family trees through their family bibles sometimes, but I find that hard to even visualise because I never saw a bible in anyone's house in my family!

I would like to meet up with other people of Irish descent, but somehow I know that any religion based group is not something I should join even if they would have me. It just wouldn't work out.

[macwilkin]

I don't know about Robert Emmett, but Wolfe Tone and Napper Tandy weren't Presbyterians (although they were indeed Protestant, not Catholic) and nor were they Ulstermen. AFAIK they were Church of Ireland, which means Anglican, or what Americans would call Episcopalian, and they were from Dublin, which of course is in Leinster, not Ulster.

I don't believe I ever specifically identified Wolf Tone as a Presbyterian in my post, sir. I did ID the some of the United Irish leadership as "Protestants", which at that time did mean Anglican -- Presbyterians were known as "Dissenters". But there were a number of Irish Dissenters/Presbyterians (and some from Ulster) which did indeed support the Volunteer movement of the 1780s and then later the United Irishmen, although by no means a majority.

And btw, I am very much aware of what the Church of Ireland and the Episcopal Church is, since I've been an Episcopalian for almost 20 years, and a Presbyterian before that. You're "preaching to the choir", sir.

T.

[Galician]

You have to understand that the AOH sees itself primarily as a religious organization, as much as a cultural one. Just to show how strongly they hold on to this as their identity, here in New York, they have been in a long-running legal battle with the Irish gay community-many of whom are from Ireland-whom they bar from marching as a group. Their commitment to the Roman Catholic Church and its teachings has been their reasoning for this.

[IrishGodfather]

Didn't mean to stir up a controversy, just was curious of the reasoning! Thanks guys!

[macwilkin]

Didn't mean to stir up a controversy, just was curious of the reasoning! Thanks guys!

Did you read the PM I sent you?

T.

[beloitpiper]

There are plenty of non-religious Irish organizations to join. My own family came to Ireland (Co. Cork) from Aberdeenshire during the Clearances. My family is Presbyterian, but we're also non-Plantation Irish. I'm friends with a lot of the guys in AOH, but I'm not religious myself so I stick with the Shamrock Club and my pipe band.

[GlassMan]

Considering the trouble I've been having waking up on time lately, maybe I should create a new group open to everyone who also has difficulty getting out of bed - The Ancient Order of Hibernators, open to humans, bears and other hibernating mammals.

[beloitpiper]

Also, sheer numbers. A total of 36,495,800 Americans (more than 12% of total population) self-reported Irish ancestry in the 2006 American Community Survey, and another 5 million self-reported Scots-Irish, who also participate in Irish events/organizations. Now, in the 2000 Census, 4.8 million Americans self-reported Scottish ancestry, which is only 1.7% of the total US population.

I'm sure there's WAY more people than that that actually have Scottish or Irish blood, but these numbers are only for people who are aware of their heritage.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Also, Woodsheal, you are up in the Northeast where there is a much higher concentration of people of Irish descent. Here in the southeast you have different dynamics. There is a much higher proportion of people of Scottish descent and so there are more Scottish societies than Irish (though the AOH in Charlotte is growing). Many of the "Irish" in this area, in fact are Scots-Irish (Ulster Scots).

[Woodsheal]

Also, Woodsheal, you are up in the Northeast where there is a much higher concentration of people of Irish descent. Here in the southeast you have different dynamics. There is a much higher proportion of people of Scottish descent and so there are more Scottish societies than Irish (though the AOH in Charlotte is growing). Many of the "Irish" in this area, in fact are Scots-Irish (Ulster Scots).

Truly! All cities in this region feature traditionally Irish neighborhoods, Irish-dominated professions (firefighters, policemen), etc. And yet, a glance at the phone book reveals nearly as many Scots surnames as Irish (many of whom probably think they're "Irish"!). Scottish emigration to America took place quite a bit earlier that the later waves of Irish, so the Scots here are more "americanized", and without those distinctive neighborhoods and other distinguishing aspects.
It's sad, though. In ten year's time, our local Scottish Society will be dead and gone....