Theory and practice.

[Nighthawk]

As a modern kilt wearer, I can't help but feel that I may in some way be part of the inspiration for this thread. I do want you to know, Jock, that even though I go my own way and always have, I do it only when appropriate. I wear my traditional tartan kilt with boots and t shirt, just as I would a pair of jeans, for very casual day to day attire. I also wear the modern variants of the traditional kilt. BUT- when in formal circumstances, I do conform to the conventions that you and other Highlanders on this forum have laid out. I do value the advice that has been given ere, and I am as traditional as possible- in traditional settings. I will not be wearing my Argylle to work any time soon, even though I wear my kilt almost daily.

Anyway, upshot is- even dogged individualists like myself do in fact appreciate the advice. Er, well, speaking for myself, at least.

[Zardoz]

Well, I don't like Sir Sean's Jabot and PC look either, but it's not the only time I've seen people dressed that way. For better or worse that seems to have been an option in the 60s and 70s. So maybe he's not as much 'wrong' as he is 'out of date'?

Look at the "rules" on this Scottish kilt vendors' website, they seen to think the PC and Jobot are OK... http://www.tynesidetartans.com/jackets.htm

In the popular and frequently cited book "So you're going to wear the Kilt" which was written in the 70's, Thompson mentions, but does not recommend, that style. He also says it is okay to wear the PC with an "evening belt" or cumberbund, instead of a waistcoat, and recommends wearing the belted plaid with a doublett as formal dress, looks which I don't think fit into the current 'current thinking' either, maybe as Jock said; "things may have moved on since then"
As I often say, dress, Highland or otherwise, evolves over time. If one implies that Highlandwear should only be worn within some narrow protocols, or it's styles should be fixed aound certain dates, one runs the risk of relegating it to a costume, and not viable modern clothing.

[Panache]

Jock,

Thinking about some of the photos that Robertson (Pour1Malt) has posted on XMTS it would seem that even among the Scots themselves there is a a pretty wide variety of ways the kilt is worn. Including some items like "Jacobite" shirts and white hose. One thing that has also struck me is the use of formal sporrans for day wear.

Meaning absolutely no disrespect here as I truly value your posts and like you (even if you are a bit crusty ) I would like to ask you if you see a shift/ digression in Scotland itself with the younger generation of Scots not carrying on the conventions of highland dress that their fathers did?

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

[Jock Scot]

Jock,

Thinking about some of the photos that Robertson (Pour1Malt) has posted on XMTS it would seem that even among the Scots themselves there is a a pretty wide variety of ways the kilt is worn. Including some items like "Jacobite" shirts and white hose. One thing that has also struck me is the use of formal sporrans for day wear.

Meaning absolutely no disrespect here as I truly value your posts and like you (even if you are a bit crusty ) I would like to ask you if you see a shift/ digression in Scotland itself with the younger generation of Scots not carrying on the conventions of highland dress that their fathers did?

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

I will try to answer all the questions that others have asked--give me time!

Now Jamie! I think youngsters, as all free thinking youngsters should do, will push at the boundaries. I did when I was 16 going on 25 and 25 going on 16! I think the modern youngster as he gets older will revert back to the traditional attire in due course, maybe with a modest adjustment here and there.

One of the advantages of being my age and there are few let me tell you, is that I have seen many(too many perhaps) go through the rebellious teenage years and on through life and amazingly the most conservative dressers and sticklers for correctness are 40 year olds! It seems when you get to nearly 70 you can have the confidence to "bend" a few conventions and get away with it!

[Peter C.]

Jock,

Thinking about some of the photos that Robertson (Pour1Malt) has posted on XMTS it would seem that even among the Scots themselves there is a a pretty wide variety of ways the kilt is worn. Including some items like "Jacobite" shirts and white hose. One thing that has also struck me is the use of formal sporrans for day wear.

Meaning absolutely no disrespect here as I truly value your posts and like you (even if you are a bit crusty ) I would like to ask you if you see a shift/ digression in Scotland itself with the younger generation of Scots not carrying on the conventions of highland dress that their fathers did?

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

I was of the impression that most of the people in photos that Robertson has posted were visiting his guest house from outside of Scotland. It has been my experience that you seldom see indigenous Scots wearing kilts.

Peter

[Jock Scot]

How true, Jock. Even my wife howled with derision when she saw that atrocious outfit "Shir Shaun" wore when the Queen opened the Scottish Parliament all those years ago. A Prince Charlie with a jabot and lacey cuffs - to a daytime function as well! Here he was at an investiture again inappropriately dressed -


But, as you say, people see someone famous like that and think that such a travesty of dress is quite all right and one that they should emulate. Fine. But next you find them lecturing you on correct forms of dress, and it must be right if "Shir Shaun" or whoever else wears it.
As you say, it will always be possible to find a quotation here or a picture there to back up whatever assertion you want to make, but none of that can belie the fact of how we Scots actually dress, which is the point I think you are trying to make.

SteveB.

I have read your well written and well thought out piece and I agree with much of what you say.However my other theory and practice points in my opening post seem to have been lost in the fog. So I print Phil's pertinant post to illustrate and remind us all of the other point that I was making. With all due respect to you all, the first and second paragraphs of the first post on this thread does seem to have been "lost".

[Phil]

SteveB.

I have read your well written and well thought out piece and I agree wih much of what you say.However my other theory and practice points in my opening post seem to have been lost in the fog. So I print Phil's pertinant post to illustrate and remind us all of the other point that I was making. With all due respect to you all, the first and second paragraphs of the first post on this thread does seem to have been "lost".

I think, Jock, that a forum such as this does go a long way to educating people about the niceties of kilt-wearing from such blatant boo-boo's as having the pleats to the front a la Richard Branson to less obvious ones such as "Shir Shaun's" wearing evening dress to a daytime function or a tartan tie with a Prince Charlie. Then there are even less obvious ones such as wearing it at the top of the hip bone where it (usually) frames and accentuates the wearer's paunch instead of where it should be just below the rib cage where it hangs properly and flatters rather than accentuates a "gentleman of substance".
Anyway who could expect someone brought up in Fountainbridge in the back streets of Edinburgh to know how to dress properly. It is definitely time he joined this forum and got a few pointers. Whoever is selling him his outfits at the moment needs to hang his head in shame allowing him out in public like that.

[blackbeard]

With all due respect to you all, the first and second paragraphs of the first post on this thread does seem to have been "lost".

Oh dear I'm afraid I may have hijacked that thought to another thread while trying not to hijack this thread. Because your thoughts on kilts and “Shir Shaun's” blunders got me to thinking about non kilted formal blunders I stuck it in an off topic discussion.
Mr. Peter Marshall over the past few years has put together a pretty nice web site on (non kilted) formal wear and he has an entire page devoted to celebrity red carpet blunders. I agree with you Jock, Phil, and Mr. Marshall that whether kilted or wearing pants, rules are rules and we should not be looking to celebrities for our style guidance.... Except maybe George Clooney.

Kilt or no kilt, just because a famous person is wearing it; doesn't mean it's correct.

[Peter C.]

Interesting point about Rangers fans. If the're anything like English soccer fans then they might attack someone they thought was a Celtic fan. Mind you, ironically, most Irish actually are Celtic fans to some extent

Celtic and Rangers fans TAUGHT English soccer fans.

Peter

[Bruno]

Interesting point about Rangers fans. If the're anything like English soccer fans then they might attack someone they thought was a Celtic fan. Mind you, ironically, most Irish actually are Celtic fans to some extent

Celtic and Rangers fans TAUGHT English soccer fans.

Peter

Now I can not sit by and have you count our football fans as a second rate group, they far exceed the english version. They are held in fear by english clubs, no one wants our fans turning up at their quiet little stadiums. Extra police are on duty just Google Manchester last year.

Psh english fans are just learning, the Scots are the masters of this.

Ps a lot of Irish fans are actually rangers fans it goes by religion Catholic or Prody.