material changes a tartan?

[OC Richard]

Yes actual swatches are a must, but even when the swatches come from the same mill there sometimes colour differences between the various weights.

You all know about the lovely "muted" range woven by House of Edgar.

In my avatar I'm wearing my band's tartan, Drummond of Perth, in HOE's muted colours.

Some of our band's kilts are 13oz, some 16oz, and the colours are not quite the same. The red in the heavier weight is slightly more purplish.

Oddly, the same tartan is listed as being in their "muted" range in one weight, but in their "modern" range in the other weight, in their sample books.

[The Wizard of BC]

What you are seeing here is the result of a number of factors.

This first is that you are comparing totally different Tartans.

The Scottish Tartans Authority lists 6 different Tartans under the name "Thompson".

These are:
Name of Tartan: Thomson (Clan)
Alternative name: Thompson Hunting, Thomson Dress
ITI number: 231 Date: 1965
Category: Name
Designer / Source: Bain/Bottomley
Copyright:

Slog: BKB:BTG
Colour Sequence: BKBGTBTGBK
Thread Count: A6K24A24LG12T56A8T56LG12A24K24
Notes:
This is now also MacTavish Hunting. Designed by John Bain & Alfred Bottomley of MacArthurs of Hamilton (now at Biggar [2002]). Alfred was owner/Managing Director of MacArthurs and John was a director and one of the leading designers in Scotland. The design work on this and the Thomson Htg was for newspaper magnate, Lord Thomson of Fleet - via Kinloch Anderson of Edinburgh. Recorded in Lord Lyon Book 23 on 7th December 1971. Sample in STA Johnston Collection. Now worn by many Thomsons regardless of spelling. John Bain (10th October 2002) remembers Lord Thomson visiting the mill in 1965 to discuss the designs. John Bain does not know where the 'hunting' suffix came from: when designed, this tartan was simply the 'Thomson' Since this is the same sett as the original MacTavish of 1906, it's not known what design work could have been involved in its production or indeed in any of the Thompson tartans. They seem to comprise a few colour changes and nothing else. Sindex calls this Lord Thomson: Hunting!!!! All very confusing! Green lightened to show sett.


Name of Tartan: Thompson (J.C.'s Fancy)
Alternative name:
ITI number: 286 Date: pre 2002
Category: American Personal
Designer / Source: Thompson, J C.
Copyright:

Slog: BTB:KBT
Colour Sequence: RTBBKBKBBT
Thread Count: R12LT48B12AA24K24AA6K24AA24B12LT48
Notes:

Same as 3595 (MacTavish). J.C.Thompson of Arlington, Virginia thought that the customary brown hunting colours did not properly reflect the derivation from MacTavish so "J.C.'s Fancy" was designed with red stripe on brown,and blue border on brown. also known as MacTavish, hunting. Tartan Society notes say it was for 'his own use' He commissioned James Scarlett MBE to weave one kilt length for him who commented in September 2003 "The shade of brown that I used for Thompson's Fancy was matched to what I got when I tried to dye scarlet with Ladies Bedstraw. I now know I overheated it, but that is what happened. It was not, of course, a fancy tartan, but one that Thompson fancied." . .

Name of Tartan: Thomson Camel
Alternative name:
ITI number: 2421 Date: circa 1960
Category: Fashion
Designer / Source: Thompson, J.C.
Copyright:

Slog:
Colour Sequence: RTKWKWKWKT
Thread Count: XR8LT60K12W26K26W6K26W26K12LT60
Notes:
As with Thomson Camel #5129, this is thought to have been designed about 40 years ago and has often been linked to an American called J.C.Thompson. The reason for that is obvious when 'Thomson's Fancy' is viewed - it just has azure in place of the white shown here. Whilst this Thomson Camel here has the red stripe in the same position as Burberry, the white stripes are much further apart and have a white line between them. Close up, there is no problem in distinguishing between this and the genuine Burberry. Lochcarron substitutes blue for the two narrow black lines. Lochcarron swatch. Another opinion suggests that this was designed by Laird Portch. The late Scotty was one of north America's leading experts on tartan and was a prolific author, his most popular book being 'So you're going to wear the kilt?" He also co-authored 'Scotland's Forged Tartans' with the father of modern tartan research, the late D C Stewart.

Name of Tartan: Thompson (Personal)
Alternative name:
ITI number: 2484 Date: 1998
Category: American Personal
Designer / Source: Celtic Connections
Copyright:

Slog:
Colour Sequence: WRWRBKBRWR
Thread Count: W6R24W24R12A56K8A56R12W24R24
Notes:
This is the private family tartan for a Dennis C. Thompson in the USA. No connection with the famous D C Thomson (with no 'P') publishers of Dundee. Count from Lochcarron woven sample.

Name of Tartan: Thomson Dress (Blue)
Alternative name:
ITI number: 5130 Date: 1965
Category: Clan/Family
Designer / Source: Bain/Bottomley
Copyright:

Slog: RBK:YKW
Colour Sequence: RBKWKYKWKB
Thread Count: R6AB60K12W24K24Y6K24W24K12AB60
Notes:
Designed by John Bain & Alfred Bottomley of MacArthurs of Hamilton (now at Biggar [2002]). Alfred was owner/Managing Director of MacArthurs and John was a director and one of the leading designers in Scotland. The design work on this and the Thomson Htg was for Lord Thomson of Fleet - via Kinloch Anderson of Edinburgh. It was registered with Lord Lyon (PRA 49/6 15th October 1965). Now worn by many Thomsons regardless of spelling. John Bain (10th October 2002) remembers Lord Thomson visiting the mill to discuss the designs. Woven by House of Edgar & Strathmore Woollen Co.

Name of Tartan: Thomson Red
Alternative name:
ITI number: 6155 Date: pre 2002
Category: Name
Designer / Source: Lochcarron of Scotland
Copyright:

Slog: ..AKAKRA..
Colour Sequence: AKAKRARKAK
Thread Count: A6K24A24K12R56A8R56K12A24K24
Notes:
Yet another Thomson variation - this one woven by Lochcarron.

Notice that all are relatively new. The oldest is only dated 1960.

Each of these Tartans are distinct and have a different thread count. So even if the colors of the yarns were all the same they will still look different.

And we are not even talking about the difference between a Dress and/or Hunting version of a Tartan.
In general a Dress Tartan is one where one of the background colors is replaced with white to create a lighter, more feminine Tartan for ladies and dancers. The best example of this is the difference between Stewart Royal and Stewart Dress. These are basically the same thread counts but in the dress version the red is replaced with white.

The Next thing you have to take into consideration is that Weaving Companies are in the business to sell fabric. Anything they can do to sell more fabric is good for them. So some companies have begun to alter the colors of the yarns in the Tartan to create a different effect. Some call these "variations" or "versions".

In the STA listings above you note that the name Lochcarron comes up more than once. This is one of the largest and most respected names in the Tartan weaving world. Many of the Tartans they weave are available in different "versions" such as "modern", "ancient", and "weathered". These varieties are all the same thread count so are the same Tartan but appear totally different due to the color change of the yarn.
For example a Tartan woven in their modern version may look green. When woven in their ancient version it may look blue. And when woven in their weathered version may look brown. But these are all the same Tartan with the same thread count.

Now, if you consider the colors of yarns from different companies, and even the dye lots themselves you can imagine that there can be quite a difference in the look of the exact same Tartan.

A piece of Tartan from Lochcarron may look totally different than the same Tartan woven by D.C. Dalgliesh or Marton Mills.

And the difference in dye lots is why kiltmakers urge their customers to order their Kilt and Fly plaid at the same time because even six months later a different dye lot my result in a different looking piece of fabric.


OK, long winded explanation. It all boils down to these points.
1. Make sure you are talking about the same Tartan. Each name may have multiple Tartans with different thread counts.
2. Make sure you are talking about the same version or variety. If you see the terms modern, ancient, weathered, dress, hunting, or anything else like a color tacked onto the name you may be talking about a different looking Tartan.
3. Make sure you are talking about the same weaving company and the same dye lot.

[kev_1270]

Hey they all got the white right

My examples didn't post great, but there were 2 examples of 2 separate Tartans that came from the same name from ScotWeb:
Thomson Grey Modern http://www.scotweb.co.uk/sr_swhdr_ta...material/51385

and

Thomson Camel Modern http://www.scotweb.co.uk/sr_swhdr_ta...material/51383

They do not appear to list the STA number next to the tartan's so it's hard to tell from the site if it is something totally different or a coloration issue. I'll just have to use the advise from above and get swatches. The issue is I was trying to find swatches for a great Kilt in PV. Some of the tartans she named as available for the kilt - were not shown on her site. So, I was trying to be proactive and research the tartan name in a PV fabric. I will check the correct STA numbers - then ask for the swatches in the PV and see the difference.

Thank to all for the info.

[fluter]

PS: I think the grey examples are both STA #3121. Oh yes, they are linked from Scotweb. So looking at the URL's, we see it's a Batley 11 oz and the Marton Mills PV.

... the second one would be called grey because???

Try looking at the same fabric on USAK's Web site: Here or at Marton Mills: here.

Remember that Scotweb can order you 16789 different tartans. Some of them will be woven to order, so they don't even exist yet, to scan or photograph.

Scooby's mom used to make formal wear for an opera company. She discovered that in the early twentieth century, with the introduction of incandescent light, many makers went to midnight blue for formal jackets because it still appeared black under artificial lighting conditions.

I think the real reason was that the Duke of Windsor started wearing it. I have a midnight blue dinner jacket which looks black---unless you see it under stage lighting next to a black one!

[kev_1270]

fluter - thx for the link. I went to their sites and has issues trying to navigate to the actual PV tartan selections.