Blue or Purple?

[Paul Henry]

I'm not interested in the tartan, though I love the look. I'm just not sure which look. ;-)

I simply find it curious, even odd, that two of the premier tartan organizations in the world show the same tartan so differently - apparently beyond any difference one would expect from the imprecision of a digital rendering.

In one, the brightest color in the tartan (Oxford) displays as blue, in the other the same color (Oxford) is shown as purple. Is it (as I infer from paulhenry's comments) that there is no accepted standard (via an RGB mix, for example) for the color Oxford? Or, did one of the orgs. simply make a mistake in its display?

Can anyone out there speak for the House of Edgar from where this tartan allegedly originated? Where is Claire Donaldson when you need her?! :-)

You are correct, there is NO accepted colour standard, there never has been, and I suspect there never really could be, and I for one wouldn't really want one, as it allows the customer a greater choice( even if sometimes it seems frustrating).
I don't see that there is a mistake in either of the pictures, it's simply the way it is, which is why I put both the pictures of the Maclean of Duart up for you, the one with the light blue is Lochcarron, the one with the stronger brighter blue is Marton Mills. Neither of the weavers have made a mistake in the colouring (via the thread count) they simply have chosen different blues.

If a tartan had been ordered some years ago, the same tartan from the same weaver ordered today wouldn't necceasrily be identical either, allowing for different dye lots , different conditions in the weaving, difference in the wool, would allow contribute to subtle variations,

[fluter]

mookien,

Just for the sake of completeness (or pedantry, if you prefer), there do exist standards for the representation of color on computer monitors. If you and I wanted to use such a standard to discuss a digital image, however, we would begin by spending about $20,000 each on the desktop computer systems we used to display the images. That's an educated guess; corrections are welcome.

However, we would not end there. We'd find a corresponding level of expense and commitment to detail at every stage of the process, from lighting to camera, to various software programs, storage formats, and so on and on. We'd spend considerable time and money calibrating our expensive monitors to ensure that we'll see the same color if we send the same numbers to your screen and mine!

In short, this is not an easy problem, so don't expect an easy solution! Re-read paulhenry 's post #6. Here are more samples of two relatively simple tartans, 3 colors each. The MacGregor red and green, and the Wallace. Each photo is a single frame.

Your eye can easily see that these are the same sett; but you'd be hard pressed to write a software program to tell you that.


Jura MacGregor of Cardney by arcturus1997, on Flickr


Wallace PV versus Wallace muted by arcturus1997, on Flickr

Another useful exercise: take a piece of green fabric, and go try to find matching thread for it. That should amuse you for an hour or so. Be sure to take a known, trusted light source with you to the fabric store.

I'm not trying to condescend, I'm saying this is a very interesting field of endeavor, which tends to get very expensive. Sit back and enjoy the trip!

[mookien]

Ken: Thanks for your comments and for posting the pictures. The point about different shades of the same color that both you and paulhenry make is well taken.

The problem here seems to be that we have two distinct colors - blue and purple, not shades of either. Even the least expensive monitors will display completely different colors so that they can be distinguished.

I can't help but believe that there was some mistake made, either by the STA or the SRT, along the path to rendering this particular tartan. That's why I made my comments about the House of Edgar and Ms. Donaldson.

It would simplify matters greatly (for me anyway), if someone who has first-hand knowledge about this tartan wrote in and said something like, "It is blue." or "It is purple." or "In real life it is neither, but it looks just like ...". It would be icing on the cake if they could also authoritatively explain why the two pictures look different, but for some of the reasons you mention, that may be too much to ask. Cheers. :-)

[Kett]

Your easiest solution may be to order swatches and see what the real difference is when you have woven cloth in front of you. Very worth the trouble, expense, and wait in my opinion (although I don't consider it much trouble, expense, nor wait but your experience my vary).

[xman]

... get a sample from the weaver, and only then base your judgement on the sample in front of you

This point cannot be more forcefully stated. Each cloth has its own size, count, colour and feel. They almost smell different as I discovered last year. Here's a thread about it. http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ng-mail-58866/

[mookien]

xman: Nice thread - lots of good-looking tartan and swatches. Thanks for the pointer.

All: If I were seriously considering the purchase of some Silver Thistle tartan, I would certainly take your advice and request sample(s). But, since I'm not, I would feel uncomfortable asking.

I do like the look of the tartan, though it's tough to find pictures of it. For example, the first two pictures of Silver Thistle tartan in Google Images are the two that I posted earlier - one in blue Oxford and the other in purple Oxford. :-) There are no others.

In fact I could not find the RGB numbers for Oxford. I got on Scotweb's tartan designer and brought up the Silver Thistle tartan. I found an Oxford Blue in their Weaver's chart but they do not show the RGB numbers for those colors. I could not find Oxford in their Pro Color chart, as well, though I may have simply missed it. I also could not find it in any RGB chart on the web. Perhaps it goes by another name.

Anyway, I've beat this horse within an inch of its life, so I'll just poke around and see what I can find out about the color Oxford. If I find anything interesting, I'll post something. If you know, or stumble across something, please let me know. Thanks.

[The Barry]

I would also suggest ordering swatches. Then, order from the place that uses the purple, I love the way that looks, very pretty!

Of course, you should actually order from the swatch that you like the best. But, what an awesome reason to wear purple hose!

[kc8ufv]

Though, yes, I would say those are different colors, they aren't that different. And the second color I'd say could be fairly called either blue or purple. I see a much more dramatic difference with the red-based tartans shown in this thread. Of the 2 in post #8, at least based on how my monitor is displaying them, I like tartan on the right. The colors just look better to me.

[mookien]

kc8ufv: You raise an interesting point. How much of the difference between two colors is objective (can be measured reproducibly) and how much is subjective (varying from person to person) perception? Color blindness is the canonical example of such disparity. From some of the comments on this thread (including perhaps my own) it would appear that folks do see these two pictures differently. And, of course, that implies that we see tartan differently, too.

I'm with The Barry preferring the purple hue. And, like you, I prefer the Maclean of Duart tartan on the right. It is brighter and the blue looks "blue", not "sky blue", at least to my eyes and on my monitor. :-)

[fluter]

If I may add one more whack on Dobbin's corpse---I did what I suspect paulhenry already had done, and requested the thread count from the Tartan Register. If you sign up on their site, you can request one per day, or some reasonable number, for free.

There are 3 blues listed, "blue," "Balmoral blue," and the ambiguous "Oxford." However the thread count usually comes with RGB approximations for the listed colors. When I translate the one for Oxford, it seems to look blue in isolation; perhaps it i s the computer-generated tartan/marl display that's doing it to us. What say the rabble?

Pallet: B=2C2C80BLUE;BL=1474B4BALMORAL BLUE;K=101010BLACK;OX=303070OXFORD;N=888888GRAY;G= 006818GREEN


OxfordBlue by arcturus1997, on Flickr

I'm pretty sure that both STA and SRT are showing us computer-generated displays, and you'll learn to take those with a cattle-sized dose of salt. I looked around House of Edgar's Web site briefly, but haven't found any further mention of the tartan.

On a related note, our two digicams both resolutely refuse to render purple reliably. The blue looking stripes on this scarf should be purple, as friends of the Fourth Doctor will doubtless know:

WTscarf66b by arcturus1997, on Flickr
The other camera infamously produced this, when Alex and I were trying to determine whether "too much purple" was a meaningful phrase. The tartan is Marton Mills's PV Warrior, consisting of two shades of purple (so Rocky tells us) and white. It should not be quite so blue, although it's on the blue end of purple.

USAK casual by arcturus1997, on Flickr