Foreign Honors for U.S. Presidents (and others)

[Chas]

Grants of arms are not so much "grants" by a sovereign as they are "requests" from a petitioner. Lord Lyon considers a grant of arms to be a grant of certain nobility: see Innes of Learny. In this instance, with respect to the US Constitution, I think that Colin Powell, who recieved his grant from LL while still serving as Secretary of State, is the only modern example of one who may have crossed that line. As for Irish Grants to sitting or past presidents, those "grants" are in no way noble or of any such considered honor: they are a matter of genealogical record only, and for that matter there has been a real stir with respect to validity of Irish grants for some time now. I see them as a matter of fun and interest for those who have a spare $5000 or so. Other than teh "nobilty clause" from Lord Lyon, I think you're right: arms are for everyone.

Each Lord Lyon is a law unto themselves and is not bound by any ruling of a previous Lord Lyon. He is not even bound by his own previous rulings. The current lord Lyon, William Sellar, does not consider his grants as conferring nobility.

Colin Powell's arms were inherited from his father who was granted arms as a memorial, as he was already deceased.

Regards

Chas

[Gregmc]

Each Lord Lyon is a law unto themselves and is not bound by any ruling of a previous Lord Lyon. He is not even bound by his own previous rulings. The current lord Lyon, William Sellar, does not consider his grants as conferring nobility.

Colin Powell's arms were inherited from his father who was granted arms as a memorial, as he was already deceased.

Regards

Chas

It has been argued elsewhere that Scottish arms still confer nobility, though my tendency is to agree with you. Colin Powell on the other hand received his "gifted grant" through his mother's tie with Scotland as I recall.

[Mike_Oettle]

Gregmc wrote: “Grants of arms are not so much ‘grants’ by a sovereign as they are ‘requests’ from a petitioner.”

This is a somewhat hair-splitting argument. While the petitioner generally is granted what he or she requests, the heralds making the grant have to rely on precedents of various kinds that could severely limit what the petitioner asks for.
And at any point the sovereign (or the heralds acting on behalf of the Crown) is at liberty to grant something entirely different.
While this has not, to my knowledge, been done in a long time, it remains a prerogative that overrides any petitioner’s request.
Regards,
Mike

[Chas]

It has been argued elsewhere that Scottish arms still confer nobility, though my tendency is to agree with you. Colin Powell on the other hand received his "gifted grant" through his mother's tie with Scotland as I recall.

The Coat of Arms of Colin Powell was granted by the Lord Lyon in Edinburgh on February 4, 2004. Technically the grant was to Powell's father (a British subject) to be passed on by descent. Scotland's King of Arms is traditionally responsible for granting arms to Commonwealth citizens of Scottish descent. Blazoned as:

Azure, two swords in saltire points downwards between four mullets Argent, on a chief of the Second a lion passant Gules. On a wreath of the Liveries is set for Crest the head of an American bald-headed eagle erased Proper. And in an escrol over the same this motto, "DEVOTED TO PUBLIC SERVICE."

The swords and stars refer to the former general's career, as does the crest, which is the badge of the 101st Airborne (which he served as a brigade commander in the mid-1970s). The lion may be an allusion to Scotland. The shield can be shown surrounded by the insignia of an honorary Knight Commander of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath (KCB), an award the General received after the first Gulf War.

Regards

Chas

[Gregmc]

Regards

Chas

Yes; I was thinking about Obama's mother. You are right. The thing is though, as I recall there was a thing about the "nobility" of Scottish arms. I understand that each Lord Lyon sets his own bar, but I've yet to hear otherwise. I've always thought it a bit of stretch myself, but those were the words of Lyon and the heraldic intelligencia.

Has Lyon entered an official position? Or is it still a guess.

[Gregmc]

Gregmc wrote: “Grants of arms are not so much ‘grants’ by a sovereign as they are ‘requests’ from a petitioner.”

This is a somewhat hair-splitting argument. While the petitioner generally is granted what he or she requests, the heralds making the grant have to rely on precedents of various kinds that could severely limit what the petitioner asks for.
And at any point the sovereign (or the heralds acting on behalf of the Crown) is at liberty to grant something entirely different.
While this has not, to my knowledge, been done in a long time, it remains a prerogative that overrides any petitioner’s request.
Regards,
Mike

I would argue that mine is not a hair splitting argument as much as it is a truth about the process. Arms have been "granted" by request since the twelfth century. Arms were in vouge . . . ( I guess this is the origination of the term "peer pressure"). The record keeper (herald) was an officer of the sovereign, and thus a "grant" was said to have been made. But, that's always been a sort of misnomer. The guidlines were worked out and vistations were made for the purpose of record and continuity. The precedents set are a matter of the rules and guidelines set by the heralds.

As for different grants of design, you are right. The differences however are decided based on uniqueness of design (as much as possible anyway) and for genealogical and heraldic blazoning proprieties. I can very easily see Lyon Clerk sending notes of correction.

It's a facinating subject: I love it. I always try however to break these things down to their lowest common demoniator to learn how they really work . . . A "Grant" of arms is great selling point, yet the offices are those of registry with historical connections and lineage.

If it's what you desire; then go for it. I can't make up my mind on a design, so I'm holding out: I'll do it in minute, but not until I'm satisfied that I have a design that says what I want it to say.