Irish kilt pleated in front?

[slohairt]

I had a man contact me a few months ago about copying his grandfather's Gaelic piper outfit. He still had the original, which was a bit more ornate than Thomas Ashe's.

[slohairt]

This isn't really a kilt, per se, but rather an attempt to re-create the look of the leine when worn with a short jacket. This sort of romantic "costuming" was very popular with personages such as Lady Gregory, William and Jack Yeats, George Moore, and the Celtic Dawn movement, but it never really caught on with the less-starry-eyed Irish.

More theatrical costuming than national costume, it has little or nothing to do with the kilt outside of its plethora of mis-placed knife pleats.

I think you mean less starry-plough-eyed Irish!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I think you mean less starry-plough-eyed Irish!

Good one, John!

[chrisupyonder]

An additional source of confusion could well be that in folk song and story the long leine (or any gown, man or woman's) when pulled up and bloused over a cord or belt was described as being worn 'kilted up to the knee' as shown in OC Richard's Wilde Irische drawing.

It was associated in the folk tales with leaving home for a long journey, or more rarely with preparation for a fight.

I wonder if it could also apply to the biblical girding of loins. Does anyone know?

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

I found this on the net...

To gird your loins during the Roman Era meant to draw-up and tie your lower garment between your legs as to increase your mobility and agility

Chris.

[O'Callaghan]

There are lots of old (i.e. contemporary and not later) drawings that appear to show the leine with pleats, although it may well be an artistic convention and the real garment may well have been merely gathered in all cases, or not, as the case may be. It does appear, however, that the leine would have been merely gathered in at least most cases, if only because the gathers in the highland great kilt apparently stem from the gathers in the leine, even though the kilt itself is descended more from the brat than the leine (if you see what I mean).

As for actual kilts with actual pleats all around, someone here posted a reference to an Irish regimental saffron kilt being pleated all around, and I have previously also seen references to the same thing in terms of early tartan kilts worn by highland regiments. This could be the British army misunderstanding the proper construction of the kilt, or perhaps unpleated aprons weren't really standardised on at the time. After all, at that stage the little kilt may still have been regarded as an attempt to approximate the lower half of a great kilt, which would have been gathered, not pleated, but gathered all around.

At the time when there appear to have been military kilts with all around pleating, I believe that the style of pleat would still have been box pleating. So who is going to start (or should that be restart) making kilts with box pleats going all the way around? I wonder.

And of course, the Gaelic revival produced many anomalies that were not historically correct viewed from that point in time, but which are now history by mere passage of time, not just in Ireland, but in Scotland too.

[macwilkin]

There are lots of old (i.e. contemporary and not later) drawings that appear to show the leine with pleats, although it may well be an artistic convention and the real garment may well have been merely gathered in all cases, or not, as the case may be. It does appear, however, that the leine would have been merely gathered in at least most cases, if only because the gathers in the highland great kilt apparently stem from the gathers in the leine, even though the kilt itself is descended more from the brat than the leine (if you see what I mean).

As for actual kilts with actual pleats all around, someone here posted a reference to an Irish regimental saffron kilt being pleated all around, and I have previously also seen references to the same thing in terms of early tartan kilts worn by highland regiments. This could be the British army misunderstanding the proper construction of the kilt, or perhaps unpleated aprons weren't really standardised on at the time. After all, at that stage the little kilt may still have been regarded as an attempt to approximate the lower half of a great kilt, which would have been gathered, not pleated, but gathered all around.

At the time when there appear to have been military kilts with all around pleating, I believe that the style of pleat would still have been box pleating. So who is going to start (or should that be restart) making kilts with box pleats going all the way around? I wonder.

And of course, the Gaelic revival produced many anomalies that were not historically correct viewed from that point in time, but which are now history by mere passage of time, not just in Ireland, but in Scotland too.

Given that said reference was from 1927, I'm not so sure I buy the theory that it was a "British Army misunderstanding of the proper construction of the kilt". If anything, the Highland regiments of the British Army had been the "guardians" of the kilt for over a century at the time of said description, including regimental tailors. As I mentioned before, it's a shame that no photo accompanied said description.

T.

[OC Richard]

Some 18th century Highland portraits appear to show the kilt pleated all around, such as a portrait of Lord George Murray, The Pinch of Snuff, and The MacDonald Children.

[macwilkin]

Some 18th century Highland portraits appear to show the kilt pleated all around, such as a portrait of Lord George Murray, The Pinch of Snuff, and The MacDonald Children.

But show me one from 1927, being worn by a Scottish "squaddie"...



T.

[ohiopiper]

Anne, "girding you loins" was indeed a reference to tucking the robe into the belt or sash to get the lower edge further from the ground and to free up the lower legs for more mobility. Girding you loins was a preparation for action.

[Galician]

The phrase would come from the older meaning of "girdle" for what we now call a belt.