Generation to Generation

**Dulcius ex Asperis** · 1st July 11, 06:58 PM

This thread gives voice to one of the things that brings me back to XMTS. Namely that I do not have any direct proof of anyone in my family wearing the kilt. No one living remembers back far enough, or knows a story from someone who does, to recall anyone wearing it. Having come from Scotland I presume that one of my forebears did wear the kilt. But the memory of it has entirely disappeared in my family. In a sense I feel the need to be "adopted" as it were by men who did grow up with kilts about them. This connects to my own sense of what it means to "wear the kilt traditionally", i.e., to wear it traditionally is simply to wear it as it has been passed down to you. There will be different traditions, then, but they all come from somewhere organically and represent an actual practice of wearing the kilt that is connected to how it was worn one, two, eight, whatever, centuries ago--even if it is not identical to any of those centuries. The tradition of kilt wearing for me is somewhat artificial as I really haven't received anything handed down. This forum is probably the best surrogate available given my circumstances. I would much prefer to take up more of an organically received way of wearing the kilt than to make it up as I go, even if it is no longer through my own family. Better some one else's than none at all.

**DWFII** · 1st July 11, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dulcius ex Asperis

This thread gives voice to one of the things that brings me back to XMTS. Namely that I do not have any direct proof of anyone in my family wearing the kilt. No one living remembers back far enough, or knows a story from someone who does, to recall anyone wearing it. Having come from Scotland I presume that one of my forebears did wear the kilt. But the memory of it has entirely disappeared in my family. In a sense I feel the need to be "adopted" as it were by men who did grow up with kilts about them. This connects to my own sense of what it means to "wear the kilt traditionally", i.e., to wear it traditionally is simply to wear it as it has been passed down to you. There will be different traditions, then, but they all come from somewhere organically and represent an actual practice of wearing the kilt that is connected to how it was worn one, two, eight, whatever, centuries ago--even if it is not identical to any of those centuries. The tradition of kilt wearing for me is somewhat artificial as I really haven't received anything handed down. This forum is probably the best surrogate available given my circumstances. I would much prefer to take up more of an organically received way of wearing the kilt than to make it up as I go, even if it is no longer through my own family. Better some one else's than none at all.

Well said!

I am in similar straits. My Scots side left for Ireland after Bannockburn. But not only were they an important clan in Argyl before that (the oldest stone castle still standing in Scotland--castle Sween on Loch Sween--was built by them) but they became an important family/clan in Ireland.

Beyond that the quandary I faced was what tartan to wear if I wanted to only wear the family tartan as Jock suggests is proper in Scotland today?

My family left before kilts evolved and certainly before tartans got assigned to clans or vice versa.

Perhaps that's why I too prefer a more Traditional approach because I have to respect the origins and spirit of the kilt...or have no reason to wear it at all.

**Father Bill** · 1st July 11, 07:21 PM

I too have come to the kilt recently. We have no family history of kilts whatsoever, other than admiration and respect. XMarks has been beautifully formative to me, for which I am grateful. I quickly gave up cream hose in favour of solid colours and am saving for diced for more formal occasions. I picked up a tweed Crail jacket and vest to replace the occasions when I had only the choice of Argyle with silver buttons. I would no longer ever wear an "evening" sporran during the day or for an informal occasion.

But oh yes, I learned other things by "family osmosis." When to remove my hat. To always have clean, shiny shoes. To dress "well" (whatever that means) and to touch my hat when I speak to a lady.

The comment that kids have no adult role models is spot on. In the school system for 32 years, I spent a lot of time teaching the fellows how to dress a mite better. When skirts and dresses came back into style, I tossed the boys out of the room for recess and gave the girls "lady lessons" about how to sit with a skirt. They were appreciative, as were their Moms, who wore slacks and didn't realize how their daughters were sitting. I taught the kids that they looked more correct in a shirt with a collar and no writing on it, with non-denim pants, and with clean shoes... and they commented that they were treated better by everyone else when they followed those suggestions - all of which were optional for them, not requirements. They liked the respect they received and it became infections throughout the school. Oddly, disciplinary incidents decreased, and spirit increased. It didn't seem so odd to me.

Both osmosis and direct instruction work. The former is, in my experience, far more effective.

Thanks for the opportunity to rant on a wee bit.

**Mickey** · 1st July 11, 08:43 PM

CMcG, GREAT topic! This is already reading like a good history book. I love it and am really looking forward to more responses.

I spent the better part of the last 30 minutes replying to this with a lot of care and thought, then lost my connection, and through a series of distractions, closed the window I was writing in. I'll try and recall the high points, but I'm usually only good for one moment of clarity in a day.. as well as several bonehead moves...

I've mentioned before that my family history is a bit spotty back in the day. As far back as can be traced, sometime in the early-mid 1800's, this one guy may have been Scottish, English or Irish, though he is generally accepted as being Irish I'm told. He lived for a time in Ireland under the name Baker, then when he left for America, he did so under the name of Macomascaigh (sp). He changed his name multiple times afterwards, so there's a "slight possibility" that he was a bit of a rascal.

That said, when I got into kilts fairly recently, I had no knowledge of them. My family embraced Polish, Irish and Norwegian heritages. EVERYTHING I know about kilts is through the guys and gals here at Xmarks, with some side reading of my own, due to the same. I rely on Scots, especially my self adopted relatives, the proper Scots/Highlanders here, for guidance on the hows/whens/wheres/whys on wearing the kilt. With the slight possibility that I have a bit of Scot in me, I do not want to disrespect the kilt. Knowing how to wear it, is very important to me, even though I may choose to do something a bit different a bit now and then.

So I enjoy the criticisms of details, much as a child hopes that his folks will allow him to go out in public dressed as he is. I can count on two fingers the number of older folks that I've met in town who were Scots and actually stopped me to talk to me about my dress (very happy to report that they were all very pleased).. One elderly couple was absolutely fascinating, but that's a different story.

This sort of brings me to jackets. I have no idea what I'm doing, and after much reading, I am still rather unclear on when to wear what style jacket. Seems that it is a very ingrained thing. Sort of how I would describe a suit, sportcoat or a blazer. "you just know based on your upbringing". That said, I am very uncomfortable with the idea of putting on a proper Argyle or Braemer or PC. I would rather wear/make my own "Irish" versions rather than putting on a no-crap traditional Scottish coat. I don't feel that I have the right.

Originally Posted by jeremy j starche

I've been training my father in kilt wearing.

***. Same here, and having a lot of fun with it! Also been passing my own dress code to my son, besides what he also gleans from here.

He knows how I feel about certain things, like how I would just as soon beat someone with a tire iron than look at them for wearing their pants so I can see 12 inches of underwear. It's a pair of pants. Try close to getting them right or stay home. There is right, wrong, and a bit of in-between.

**Jock Scot** · 2nd July 11, 05:52 AM

That is a very interesting kilt your ancestor is wearing, Rex. Two tartans in one kilt? I wonder, with interest, what our tartan and kilt historians have to say about it?

**DWFII** · 2nd July 11, 05:59 AM

^^ Yeah, what the heck is that? It looks like some sort of watermark...

**Jock Scot** · 2nd July 11, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by DWFII

^^ Yeah, what the heck is that? It looks like some sort of watermark...

I think you could be right there, perhaps it is a watermark.

**tripleblessed** · 2nd July 11, 07:33 PM

I think that photo definitely needs closer examination. From my house it appears unlikely to be a watermark. Our right/his left of the sporran, it looks to be a separate piece of fabric, unattached, totally different design. The light stripe by the front edge of the jacket is visible to the waist. Just above the sporran, below the wearer's left skirt of the vest, there is an apparent separation of stripes, looking like a partially down zipper, which I would find more than unlikely, but that's what it looks like, and I don't know enough about period construction to come up with anything giving that appearance.

Very curious, to say the least. Wonderful picture, though. Thanks, Rex, for a jewel of a photo.

**Mickey** · 2nd July 11, 08:35 PM

There is definitely a watermark or something going on here. I blew it up and enhanced it, and if you look to the left (right of the wearer) you can see how the vertical bars go beyond the kilt, from the edge of the jacket down. Also the curved "stripe" is part of this pattern. And if you look close, you can see a definite horizontal bar that travels across both kilt and jacket that all of the verticals connect to, except for the far one on the right hand side. Not sure what it is. Watermark, bleed from something in storage, hard to say. But looking close, it definitely an overlay of some sort.

By the way, I absolutely LOVE this photo. I really like old photos and this is just wonderful. Thanks so much for sharing it!