Mess jackets - questions

[Tobus]

Thank you all for your advice so far. That's good stuff to know!

I hastily put these on last night to try to get some pictures before dusk while the light was still good. I don't have a bowtie, so I just wore a regular black tie for photo purposes. My wife, by the way, LOVES this jacket with the kilt. And I actually think it looks pretty good too, even with the regular tie. It doesn't look nearly as formal as I thought it would. Not like a PC, anyway. I suppose that's because of my tie choice and the fact that my sporran doesn't have a cantle.



I also tried it with a regular black day sporran, but I don't think I like it as much:



And here's the white jacket:



Last but not least, here's a close-up of the buttons. They are indeed military. That is the USAF logo. My grandfather was a full-bird Colonel, and was head of the Alaskan Air Command as well as the Strategic Air Command, among other roles.



So I will probably need to replace the buttons with something civilian, which is easily enough done. I'd rather not permanently alter the jacket by cutting off the shoulder board loops, though, unless it's absolutely necessary. What do you think? Would it be a fashion faux pas to keep the loops on the shoulders?

You posted in the Traditional forum, so I assume you want traditional advice. You can dress down your kilt outfit with your hose and sporran and shoes as easily as you can with the jacket. It IS a "dress mess" as in FULL dress, but this is a wedding- and you are a sharp dressed man in a kilt.

Yes indeed, I am wanting traditional advice. I may intentionally stray slightly from tradition for this wedding, since I'll be the only kiltie there, but I at least want to learn the rules of wearing a mess jacket before deciding whether to break them.

One of the oft overlooked rules of wedding attire is that as a matter of mutual respect both the bride's family, and that of the groom, should be dressed to the same level of formality. That being the case it would be absolutely correct to wear a mess jacket with your kilt, provided you replaced the buttons and removed the shoulder board loops. However, before committing to wearing the mess jacket, make sure that it is long enough to cover the top of your kilt, with no shirt showing on the sides or back.

That's a very good point, and I hadn't thought of that. I'm told he's wearing his USAF dress blues, which is dressy but not overly formal, as I recall.

Do you think this mess jacket is long enough in the back and sides, based on the picture above? It seems to have at least an inch or two covering the top of my kilt and part of the belt.

So after a little net research, I came across what sounds like a picture of your jacket here, about a third of the way down the page.

Yes, that is it exactly!

[Zardoz]

Looks fine, go with a bow tie though

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Thank you all for your advice so far. That's good stuff to know!

I hastily put these on last night to try to get some pictures before dusk while the light was still good. I don't have a bowtie, so I just wore a regular black tie for photo purposes. My wife, by the way, LOVES this jacket with the kilt. And I actually think it looks pretty good too, even with the regular tie. It doesn't look nearly as formal as I thought it would. Not like a PC, anyway. I suppose that's because of my tie choice and the fact that my sporran doesn't have a cantle.

Tobus, change to a black bow tie and the above look is perfect; no need for a waistcoat if you prefer the look of the dirk belt and belt plate (which is slightly less formal than wearing a vest). As for the length of the mess jacket, it is 100% spot on. As long as the jacket fits (and this one fits exceedingly well), you've no need to ever rush out and buy a Prince Charlie coatee (sorry advertisers! ).

[gordontaos]

It looks FANTASTIC!

[A widow's son]

For what it is worth, I would go with a rented vest and a bow tie. That is a formal jacket no matter how you cut it and if you insist on a long tie, heed the advice above and go with a tweed jacket.

[Newfoundlander]

Both these jackets look great, I have to say!

The black is nice with just your regular tie if you want a little less formal look, or a bow tie for full formal look. I'd fasten the jacket during the ceremony, but otherwise leave it open. The length looks about just right for you as well. Quite sharp!

The white jacket when pared with a black (or white) bow tie would look great, especially with your tartan! Though it does seem a touch more "white tie" and thus a little more formal even than your black jacket.

As for the shoulder board loops, I understand you not wanting to alter the jacket by removing them. Especially given your grandfathers meritorious career. However, if you change the buttons to civilian buttons, than it doesn't make sense to have shoulder board loops, IMHO. I don't know how they're attached. Is it possible to cut and remove the stitching without altering the fabric of the jacket? that way, just like the buttons, they can easily be re-attached and the jacket brought back to its original state quite easily. My mess kit never had those loops, so I don't know...

Again, this is just my opinion, but I think its "ok" to do whatever you like really. Your not in uniform and you don't have to conform to any dress regulations.

let us know what you decide, and if you swap the buttons show the final product please Thanks!

[davidg]

If you want to keep your loops then it would be quite a simple job to make epaulettes, perhaps in braided satin or crepe, that could attach to them (or even be sewn OVER them) with a matching button on each

Usually black is worn in colder climates and white in warmer, so it's your choice, but I do agree the black gives a less formal feel. But, please, a black bow tie. I would suggest either a standard collar white shirt (I think you call them dress shirts, which are different to our more formal dress shirt) and forget about dress studs or a white shirt with a fly front so buttons are not showing

If you replace the USAF buttons with standard shiny chrome lion rampant buttons the result should be similar to a civilian mess jacket and should not look out of place

[Tobus]

Thank you, gentlemen! It seems that the consensus is that I'd be fine by simply changing to a black bowtie, preferably with a shirt that has studs and cufflinks instead of plain buttons.

I have $50 credit at The Men's Wearhouse, and I'm betting I can get a shirt for around $40 with a bowtie for around $20, leaving me only $10 or so out of pocket. This, I can do. The only hangup is going to trying to convince my wife. She hates bowties.

*edited to add:

I'd fasten the jacket during the ceremony, but otherwise leave it open.

Actually, I'll probably have to leave it open. I'm not walking her down the aisle (her actual father is going to do that), so I'll just be seated the whole time with my wife (her mother). But more importantly, the jacket is a bit of a tight squeeze to button it closed when I'm not wearing anything else. But it's impossible to button around that kilt belt and waistplate. So I'll just have to leave it open as shown above, which actually looks better than having it buttoned IMHO.

[JSFMACLJR]

It looks much better open, anyway.

Tell your wife that a bow tie is the normal, standard, de rigueur neck wear of choice for black tie events. Tell her to get used to it! Four-in-hand ties are faddish, non-traditional, and a bit odd looking when worn in place a a bow tie with evening dress. IMHO, of course!

[Downunder Kilt]

Looking sharp Tobus and as another poster said, I don't think you would ever have to get a PC as long as you have that lovely jacket in your wardrobe. I think you are correct in not wanting to take the shoulder board loops off. As for the hair sporran, it is ideal for the the level of formailty you are looking for.
Have a great time at the wedding