Meaning of Tartan's ?

[davidg]

The latter of course is an insect dye so natural as opposed to vegetable dyes is a more correct term.

You are, of course, absolutely right. I did know that, honest

I seem to recall cochineal came from Spain but I'm not absolutely certain. I can't remember where indigo comes from though

[Bugbear]

I don't know where you've seen this stated but it's rubbish. The majority of pre-1800 setts that survive have no connection with the Government setting.

figheadair, about how many pre-1800 clan setts were there?

I've been trying to understand all of this, and there are so many old myths that get repeated and stuck in one's head...

[figheadair]

figheadair, about how many pre-1800 clan setts were there?

I've been trying to understand all of this, and there are so many old myths that get repeated and stuck in one's head...

Were there? We will never know.

How many from all sources, which really means extant examples or very good portraits (and the latter are always open to interpretation), can I identify that are pre-1800? Perhaps 50 or so and certainly less than 100 of the over 7500 now in existance. That's why it's so important to research and preserve them and their history.

[figheadair]

You are, of course, absolutely right. I did know that, honest

I seem to recall cochineal came from Spain but I'm not absolutely certain. I can't remember where indigo comes from though

Cochineal came originally from Mexico and lives on cactus. The Spanish brought both back and cultivated them. For many years they controlled the secret of true scarlet and there was my industrial espionage to try and discover it. The Bows company in London were using it by the early 1600s. The other source which occasionally turns up as a red source is Persian Lac, another type of Shield Insect dye.

There are over 40 sub-species of indigo, which comes from India, but there are several other plant species that produce Indogotin, the actual dyestuff. Most notable in European culture is Woad which of course is often associated with the Picts. Indigo was widely grown in Virginia and the Carolinas during the colonial period.

[Bugbear]

Were there? We will never know.

How many from all sources, which really means extant examples or very good portraits (and the latter are always open to interpretation), can I identify that are pre-1800? Perhaps 50 or so and certainly less than 100 of the over 7500 now in existance. That's why it's so important to research and preserve them and their history.

Thank you. I have a feeling I was not clear in my question. I was asking how many "clan tartan" setts there might have been before 1800?
I apologize very much if I'm not understanding the answer: the numbers look high for clan tartans.

[figheadair]

Thank you. I have a feeling I was not clear in my question. I was asking how many "clan tartan" setts there might have been before 1800?
I apologize very much if I'm not understanding the answer: the numbers look high for clan tartans.

Just for clarity, as there were no clan tartans pre-c.1800 I assume you mean how many of the current clan tartans existed before 1800? There is a sub-set to that question which is and was that tartan associated with the clan that now uses it as their tartan. Correct?

[piperdbh]

I can't remember where indigo comes from though

Indigo was a cash-producer in the southeastern US, among other locales worldwide.

[Bugbear]

Just for clarity, as there were no clan tartans pre-c.1800 I assume you mean how many of the current clan tartans existed before 1800? There is a sub-set to that question which is and was that tartan associated with the clan that now uses it as their tartan. Correct?

Oh my... I'm glad I asked. It's worse than I thought. I thought I had seen one or two people claiming their clan's tartan had been in use in the 1700s as an identification of the clan. Thanks for clearing that up, and I apologize for my misunderstanding.

I guess the question would have to be about, as you say, setts that had been associated with clans in that century and are now used as clan tartans?

[figheadair]

I guess the question would have to be about, as you say, setts that had been associated with clans in that century and are now used as clan tartans?

If speaking of use as the main clan tartan today then there are two probably contenders: MacKintosh and MacDougall but even those associations are open to debate.

There are a number of non-standard tartans associated with clans today that have a connection them in the C18th. The MacDonalds have more than their fair share : Borrodale, Glenaladale, Kingsburgh, Lord of the Isles Red and Green setts. Others include: the Red Campbell setts, MacQuarrie and Murray of Tullidardine.

[thescot]

I can say with some confidence that the answer to the OP is, NO.

I think that, in general, it's safe to say that, early on, the colors were made from whatever form of dye was available, and that was somewhat regional, at least in the more rural areas and among the poorer of the folk. Obviously, those who were financially able had access to a wider range of dyes, commercially produced cloth, etc. I doubt that His Grace Archibald Campbell wore the same attire as Rob Roy.

Speaking of which, Rob Roy, the novel (which is not about Rob Roy), is instructive as to how different folks might have actually lived. When in Glasgow, Rob was dressed pretty much like everyone else; in the Highlands, he was kilted and attired in traditional highland garb, complete with a sporran that had a booby trap included. (I'd love one of those! )

I believe it is safe to assume that after 1800, it was the mills who saw an opportunity to help create a market for wool cloth by coming up with the various tartans and clan associations. I applaud their entrepeneurial spirit and accumin, and I am impressed with their creativity. However, buying into their advertising statements would be as silly as buying into current ad slogans.

And. . . I do believe that many "hunting" tartans were created by adding colors to the Governement tartan. I read that in So You're Going to Wear . . . to cite a source, and whether you like Scotty Thompson or his book, you have to agree that he did at least try to study tartans and demythologize many old beliefs.

And--a bit of modern heresy--if a new wearer of the kilt purchases his book and does as he advises, he will not go wrong. . . . Except for the white hose.