Scots-Irish

[kilted scholar]

Why wouldn't they just use the term Ulster-Scots? It's the term that unionists in the north of Ireland use to differentiate themselves from the "Irish-Irish".

This is a good question - but this is what they were called in the USA. In other contexts, and for various reasons, the English are called "poms" and were called "limeys" although they are not used in the UK to distinguish them from Scots, Welsh or Irish.

[MacLowlife]

In some cases, it is an example of "Just because the cat had kittens in the oven, it doesn't make them biscuits", i.e., some Scots emigrated first to Ulster, then on to America. My Witherspoon ancestors stopped in Belfast, but not for a whole generation, before heading to Carolina.

I believe the distinction came largely as described above, when variously derided Irish-Irish came to the US in great waves. Another distinction seems to be that Scotch-Irish / Scots-Irish are overwhelmingly Presbyterian, whereas the Irish-Irish have historically been Roman Catholic.

I realize Matt's article explains this more thoroughly and more clearly, but not everyone will follow the link. For those wishing to read even more, I would recommend DAVID HACKETT FISCHER'S ALBION'S SEED. Fischer calls the Ulster Scots "borderers" and describes them as one of four large groups of British immigrants, each preserving characteristic folkways.

[MacSpadger]

I'd not heard the term until I started using BB boards and came into contact with Americans. Matt explains it concisely. There's a fairly comprehensive Wiki on it here.
It does seem to be an American term, which is why we don't hear it over here.

People in Great Britain or Ireland that are of a similar ancestry usually refer to themselves as Ulster Scots, with the term Scotch-Irish used only in North America.

The sign Matt posts is in several publications as being from London in the 1880's. There was a well known popular song at the time called "No Irish Need Apply" which advised young Irish people to take the long haul to New York, where they would be better received than in London.

[Jock Scot]

I suppose so, but in the same sense that a man from Connaught is a Connaughtman or a man from Leinster is a Leinsterman.

Jock I think your getting mixed up with unionists within the 6 counties of Northern Ireland, and the population of the 9 counties of Ulster.

Well actually I was thinking of the 9 counties, but you are right, the term has been "adapted"(adopted?) by some.

[Blackrose87]

Well actually I was thinking of the 9 counties, but you are right, the term has been "adapted"(adopted?) by some.

I think it has, but generally Irish people don't refer to themselves by the province they're from, except when supporting a sports team.
Altough I'm from Derry, I would never describe myself as an Ulsterman. Just as someone from Waterford wouldn't call themselves a Munsterman

[davidlpope]

I just pulled Patrick Griffin's book "The People with No Name" off my shelf. In discussing what to call these immigrants, Griffin cites contemporary examples where the titles "Scotch", "Scotch-Irish", and "Irish" were all rejected by those upon whom the titles were bestowed. Leyburn writes that these people were most often referred to as "Ulster Irish", "Northern Irish", or "Irish Presbyterians" by those outside this group when referring to them.

Leyburn traces the first use of the term "Scotch-Irish" to a document of Queen Elizabeth in 1573, although the group she was referring to were Highlanders who had gone to Ireland. Leyburn does reference uses of "Scotch-Irish" as a descriptor, but these seem to be in the writings of Quakers and Episcopalians and the term is used in a derogatory way. One piquant example that Leyburn quotes is a Marylander accused of murder who is recorded as calling the victim and his compatriots "damned Scotch-Irish sons of b--s".

Charles Woodmason, an Anglican priest, writing of Carolinian backcountry inhabitants prior to the Revolution describes them in this way: "Ignorant, mean, worthless, beggarly Irish Presbyterians..."

As Matt has said, though, this is particularly an Americanism, used to signify that the people referred to are Protestant Lowland / Border Scots who emigrated to Ireland before emigrating again to America in the 18th century, as contrasted with the native Catholic Irish who emigrated to the US in large numbers in the 19th century.

[Blackrose87]

In some cases, it is an example of "Just because the cat had kittens in the oven, it doesn't make them biscuits", i.e., some Scots emigrated first to Ulster, then on to America. My Witherspoon ancestors stopped in Belfast, but not for a whole generation, before heading to Carolina.

In the case of these people, why didn't they refer to themselves as Scots instead of Ulster-Scots or Scots-Irish?
If they had only stopped for a short time in Ireland, then they wouldn't have had the same culture and traditions as the Ulstèr-Scotch fowk. It seems strange they would suddenly call themselves Irish.

[davidlpope]

Most families were in Ulster for several generations before immigrating again to America. Based on what I've read, they seemed to consider themselves Irish.

In the same way, despite the "hyphenated-American" practice here (Scottish-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, etc.), if I immigrated with my family to another country, I would explain to my new neighbors that I was American, regardless of where my ancestors may have emigrated from 250 years ago.

To reiterate, this is not a term that was used by this people group at the time they immigrated, but rather a term that was used later by historians and ethnographers to differentiate the Presbyterian Irish (of Scots-descent) from the native Catholic Irish.

[Blackrose87]

Most families were in Ulster for several generations before immigrating again to America. Based on what I've read, they seemed to consider themselves Irish.

To reiterate, this is not a term that was used by this people group at the time they immigrated, but rather a term that was used later by historians and ehtnographers to differentiate the Presbyterian Irish of Scots descent from the Catholic native Irish.

Thanks, that makes sense. I just heard the word a few times here, and was confused to who it referred.

Is it solely a historical term, or do people still describe themselves as Scots-Irish inNorth America, Australia etc?

[davidlpope]

Americans who are aware of their Ulster Scots ancestry refer to themselves as "Scotch-Irish", unless they are better informed than average.

As an aside, the mythology of this people group has reached almost heroic proportions here in the US. My theory is that this is a result of conflating "Scotch-Irish" culture with the "Frontier Culture" which developed in the 18th and 19th century during westward expansion. As a result, most Southerners tend to overemphasize their "Scotch-Irishness" and underemphasize their "Englishness", although the English were the largest ethnic group settling the South, even in the backcountry. Ironically, two of our biggest frontier heroes, Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone, bore French Huguenot and Welsh/English surnames, respectively.

Follow this link to a book on this subject written by a great American, James Webb:
http://www.jameswebb.com/articles/pa...cotsirish.html