Military Box-Pleats: some questions for the rabble.

[OC Richard]

To be clear, I should point out that of the five old kilted Scottish regiments (The Black Watch, The Seaforth Highlanders, The Cameron Highlanders, The Gordon Highlanders, and The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders) the majority had boxpleated kilts (only The Black Watch and The Gordon Highlanders had knifepleated kilts).

With the creation of The Royal Regiment of Scotland, a standardised uniform was adopted for all Scottish battalions, the kilt being the boxpleated kilt of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

So, all Scottish soldiers today wear boxpleated kilts. (The exception being the Pipe Bands, who continue to wear the uniform of their original parent regiments.)

Since the case has always been that boxpleated kilts are more common in the Army than knifepleated kilts, it makes me wonder why the 20th century civilian kiltmaking world focused entirely on the (relatively rare) knifepleated kilt.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Richard,

Thanks, I keep forgetting that the Royal Regiment kilts are box pleated, as can be clearly seen in this photo.


Paul,
Some insist that the "military box pleat" is indeed a different animal than the "traditional box pleat" but I will keep insisting that it is not! I'm not doubting your skills here as a kilt maker, and I know you have made both styles, but keep in mind I have a bit of experience in this arena, as well. I have a feeling we are perhaps approaching the same subject from different angles. Could you perhaps explain to me why, in your view, the "military box pleat" is different?

[Paul Henry]

Matt, do you mean why a military box pleat is different from a box pleat?
It's not my view that the MBP and the Box pleat are different, they just are!

A box pleat by defintion has a "wall" on either side of the face, often that wall is up to about half the width of the face and folds under the face. The wall doesn't have to be half of the face but usually with kilts is approximately that. A Box pleat is often used with ladies skirts and in that case the walls are usually very narrow.

A military box pleat is a knife pleat folded over onto itself , it doesn't have 2 "walls" on either side,so it's not a box pleat by definition.Because it's formed as an further stage of knife pleating it means the pleats tend to be much narrower than a normal box pleat.

The ammount of cloth tends to be smaller in an historic box pleat and greater in a MBP but the actual lengths of cloth used are not particularly important, but certainly in a true military kilt there will be more fabric - 8 yards plus perahps.

I'm not doubting your experience at all or your fondness for a box pleat, but I'm merely hoping to make clear that the two forms of pleating are different,and certainly on this forum there is often confusion between the two.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

It's not my view that the MBP and the Box pleat are different, they just are!

That's precisely where I disagree. They are the same sort of pleat, just utilizing different amounts of cloth. If it is true, as you say, that they are in fact different pleating styles, then one should be able to make a "military box pleated" kilt from four yards of material and a "traditional box pleated" kilt from eight yards, correct? How would one do so?

I don't think one could, because they are in fact the same pleating style, the only difference being the amount of cloth used.

A box pleat by defintion has a "wall" on either side of the face, often that wall is up to about half the width of the face and folds under the face. The wall doesn't have to be half of the face but usually with kilts is approximately that. A Box pleat is often used with ladies skirts and in that case the walls are usually very narrow.

I am afraid I am having trouble visualizing what you mean by a "wall" in this context, so I'm not following your description here, I am sorry.

A military box pleat is a knife pleat folded over onto itself , it doesn't have 2 "walls" on either side,so it's not a box pleat by definition.Because it's formed as an further stage of knife pleating it means the pleats tend to be much narrower than a normal box pleat.

Actually, when I am sewing a kilt I always start by sewing the pleats in the same way, whether the kilt will ultimately be a box pleat or a knife pleat. Both pleats begin life looking the same. Forming the "box" in the box pleat always requires an additional step after the pleat is sewn, whether the kilt is made from four, five, six, seven or eight yards of material. The size of the pleats is a direct function of the amount of cloth used, and whether the kilt is box pleated or knife pleated makes no difference.

The ammount of cloth tends to be smaller in an historic box pleat and greater in a MBP but the actual lengths of cloth used are not particularly important, but certainly in a true military kilt there will be more fabric - 8 yards plus perahps.

I would say the amount of cloth was smaller in historic kilts period, regardless of the pleating style. Kilts were simply made with less material in earlier days. Today's military kilts are nominally eight yards, but many I have seen in person and bothered to measure out actually contained less, sometimes as little as six but often closer to seven.

I'm not doubting your experience at all or your fondness for a box pleat, but I'm merely hoping to make clear that the two forms of pleating are different,and certainly on this forum there is often confusion between the two.

I agree with your last statement here, that there is indeed a lot of confusion about this issue. I will only stress that my fondness for the box pleated kilt has nothing to do with what I am saying here, and that is that what people often refer to as "military box pleats" and "traditional/historic box pleats" are in fact the same style of pleat, only made with different amounts of cloth in the kilt.

[CDNSushi]

Having been the recent recipient of a very lovely military box in the XMTS tartan, I'll answer the best way I can...

1: The actual construction. I've read it described as a knife pleat with the facing folded back. Not being exceptionally bright or all that familiar with kilt making, I'm having trouble picturing exactly what this means.

The pix and descriptions provided herein are accurate. To make a military box, you start with a regular knife-pleated tank, then fold all the pleats back onto themselves.

2: Does the different pleating affect the kilts "swang?" Increase, decrease, turn it into a confused jumble when you walk?

Jumbled mess? A little, but not overly. Does it affect the way it hangs and swings? Not perceptibly. A tank is a tank is a tank... Heavy.

3: Are the pleats more difficult to keep intact? I have become fairly skilled at sweeping a knife-pleated kilt--do these pleats require a different method?

Yes. You have to be more careful in sweeping the pleats, or you will end up with an awful mess that I wouldn't want to be ironing... The very thought of having to clean and press this kilt makes me shudder. But no special technique is required.

4: Is this construction better-suited to heavier weights (16oz.+)? The tartan I've chosen, is a 13oz. medium-weight tartan.

Not unless you want the weight of the world on your waist. Mine is a very hefty kilt. I wouldn't want it to be too heavy a fabric with all those extra folds.

5: Out of curiosity, is it genuinely used for military kilts, or is it that appellation a marketing flourish?

Matt answered this very well already.

I'd like to avoid asking something as terribly subjective as "is it worth the extra cash?" but to those members who own one...do you feel like it was worth the extra cash? Why or why not? I'll admit that part of the draw is the fact that I don't see this style very often--I like the idea of ordering something which challenges my kilt-maker's skills a little more and results in something not commonly encountered.

I am very, very happy to have my military box. It's a piece of art! Would I want any more than the one I have? Not a chance! One is amply sufficient. There IS additional care involved in wearing and caring for it, and it would just be too impractical to wear that all the time.

[Woodsheal]

I love mine! The "swang" is as impressive as a regular knife-pleated tank (as the photo of the troops above shows). As for sitting in chairs, the car, etc. I personally find the box-pleats easier to manage, as the backside of the kilt is sort of a "smooth surface", if that makes sense. Sweeping the pleats and sitting - no problem! Mine is in 16 oz. tartan, so a heavy kilt, but I don't notice any lack of comfort when I wear it. Quite the opposite...!

[cable scot]

LT,
I have no advice for you at this time.........but I'll be happy to answer your all your questions at the conclusion of my tartan orgy later this summer.

Fondest Regards
Andy

[Grae]

Very infomative thread, I have heard the term "barrel" pleats with reference to some military kilts and a "cane" used to keep the pleats shapley, is this another name for the (probably misnomer) miltary box pleat being discussed here or is another variation of pleating used by the military regiments ?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Very infomative thread, I have heard the term "barrel" pleats with reference to some military kilts and a "cane" used to keep the pleats shapley, is this another name for the (probably misnomer) miltary box pleat being discussed here or is another variation of pleating used by the military regiments ?

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: my impression is that while the pleats are constructed the same, the finishing process (in terms of pressing) is different. In this case the pleats are not intended to be pressed flat, but left somewhat rounded, which is why the cane would be used to shape out the pleats. Bob Martin does a good job of describing this style of pleat in his book, All About Your Kilt, which is where my information comes from. I can't recall being able to examine a kilt made in this fashion in person.

[OC Richard]

I have heard the term "barrel" pleats with reference to some military kilts

Which regiment(s) in which army?

I ask because from time to time on this forum there have been posts which suggest that various things are worn by the "military" or by "regiments" which in my nearly 40 years of studying the subject I have never come across, and it would be informative for all of us if specific evidence for these things were shared here.

I have certainly seen old military boxpleated kilts which haven't been pressed in a long time, where the edges of the pleats have disappeared and the pleats have become very much like a series of tubes. In those regiments, though, the kilts maintained by the soldiers don't look like that, but have crisp-looking pleats.