1680 Picture questions.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I stated in the OP that O'Neill was portraying an Irish lord of a century earlier. By the late 17th century the Irish aristocracy had adopted English fashions.

Interesting that you reckon it is a 'purse'...what is the significant difference between a purse hanging from his belt and a sporran doing the same?

Interesting as well about the dart and its significance as an 'Irish' weapon...not something that would be widely known today...

When we think of a sporran (today) we think of a general purpose pouch used to hold a variety of stuff -- money, car keys, cell phone. In the 17th century it would have still held "stuff" but more likely coins, dried food items, etc. Now "sporran" does mean purse in Gaelic, but the kind of purse I'm referring to is a more specialized item. These are larger than the usual sporran, generally more elaborately decorated, and usually intended to carry a specific item, rather than a jumble of things. For example, many heraldic seals were kept in special purses, as were badges of high office.

To some the triangular shape of the "flap" worn by O'Neill is more suggestive of a purse of special purpose, rather than an all purpose sporran. But, as I've said previously, no one seems to be 100% "in the know" as to what this really is.

My personal take on this has always been that it is probably an embroidered apron, part of the trews, and intended to cover the fly where the left and right front cross over at the waist. In this regard they would be similar to the trews known to have been worn by James V in the late 1530s. -- But again, that is mere speculation on my part.

[Dale Seago]

Yes, that's a purse hanging from O'Neill's belt. As to O'Neill's costume, there is some controversy as to whether or not Irish Chiefs in the late 17th century actually dressed in this manner (unlike the portrait of Mungo Murray, also painted by Wright in Dublin at about the same time). It has been suggested that O'Niell's coustume was based on descriptions of the mode of dress worn by chiefs during the Tudor/Elizabethan era. The argument in support of this theory is that a pre-reformation style of dress was chosen to re-enforce the strong Roman Catholic faith of O'Neill; indeed, the entire picture seems to suggest a strong anti-reformation theme: O'Neill is armed with a dart, a traditional Irish weapon; behind him a servant holding many darts, indicative of the willingness of the Irish to defend their faith. O'Neill is standing over a suit of Japanese armour-- at that time the Japanese were persecuting Catholics in the most horrific manner and even Protestant Europeans where shocked at the Japanese behavior-- again alluding to defeating the oppressors of the Roman Catholic faith.

Now, because of the controversy over the exact manner in which late 17th century Irish chiefs may have dressed, I don't think that one can say with absolute accuracy that the purse in the picture is a sporran, at least in the sense that we here on XMTS would accept or understand that word. If O'Neill's costume was created for the picture then the purse/sporran could be nothing more than a fanciful prop created by the painter to give balance to the picture. The truth is, we just don't know for certain.

What is useful is that this picture clearly shows that while the Scots did wear kilts in the 1680s, clearly the Irish did not.

Excellent contextual points.

When I first saw this some years ago, I was also struck by O'Neill's sidearm: While the blade-to-handle length ratio makes it almost certain to be an old Irish scian, the shape and style of the handle look more like a late 1600s/early 1700s Scottish dirk.

[Henry Mc]

Surely one of the more intresting pictures of tartan scots from times gone by. Four scots mercenaries in the pay of Gustavus Adolphus.

Easy to see how the mantle, or brát/plaid/cloak transmogrified into the kilt from this excellent image...

[neloon]

Surely one of the more intresting pictures of tartan scots from times gone by. Four scots mercnaries in the pay of Gustavus Adolphus.

Though in the original woodcut of 1631, they are called "Irishmen or lunatics"!! As usual in those days, Scots = Irish/Erse (?or lunatic).

Alan

[Henry Mc]

More picture questions



Battle of Culloden this time. This picture is interesting imo because it shows the highlanders as still wearing their yellow léines even at this late stage. Allowing for simple repetition and distance etc it was the easiest way to portray a multitude of clansmen.

Anyway I am trying to find out details of this particular painting, so any info on the picture or any other observations would be welcome...

[neloon]

I have no idea who the artist was here. There are, of course, many pictures of the battle presumably none of them all that authentic in detail, not even the best known one where Highland prisoners in London are said to have been made to pose.

Alan

[Henry Mc]

I have no idea who the artist was here. There are, of course, many pictures of the battle presumably none of them all that authentic in detail, not even the best known one where Highland prisoners in London are said to have been made to pose.

Alan

This seems to an authentic period piece if nothing else, so at least the artist is informed by people of the time as to details like dress. Some good modern efforts, all include a token truis wearer, which is good...

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

More picture questions



Battle of Culloden this time. This picture is interesting imo because it shows the highlanders as still wearing their yellow léines even at this late stage. Allowing for simple repetition and distance etc it was the easiest way to portray a multitude of clansmen.

Anyway I am trying to find out details of this particular painting, so any info on the picture or any other observations would be welcome...

I would avoid attaching any significance to the colour of the jackets/shirts worn in this picture. This is an engraving that has been hand tinted, not something that was painted at the time the events took place. The choice of yellow for the coats worn by the Highlanders in the lower r/h of the print was probably done to draw attention to them, and to provide visual balance to both the rearing horse and the streak of yellow in the sky. If the Highlanders had been in blue coats they would have virtually vanished in the picture. Does this print depict Highlanders in saffron shirts? Hmmm. I don't think I'd bet the farm on it.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I have no idea who the artist was here. There are, of course, many pictures of the battle presumably none of them all that authentic in detail, not even the best known one where Highland prisoners in London are said to have been made to pose.

Alan

Alan,
The picture to which you refer, posed though it was, is probably as close as we'll ever get to knowing that the Jacobite army actually looked like when assembled on Drumossie Moor. The models were captured Jacobites who were dragged from their cells, handed captured weapons, and told to "assemble" for the artist. The last time I saw the original, it was hanging in a stairwell at Holyrood Palace. It's a small picture, not terribly well painted, but the clothes, uniforms, and weapons are 100% accurate.

[neloon]

"the clothes, uniforms, and weapons are 100% accurate. "
You were there?

Alan