1st Post--Opinions about neckwear and the Sheriffmuir Doublet

[Chas]

A good quality, hand made lace jabot is not really, or needn't be, frilly. I have an antique one, which is quite 'full', but will sit quite close to my body.

[CeilidhDoc]

Thank you for the suggestions, but perhaps I should clarify.

I have a number of cravats and bow ties. I don't have a stock tie but since my stepmother does horseback fox hunting regularly, I am familiar with stock neckties although I have never seen them with the Sheriffmuir. I am indeed aware that many ties have been worn with the Sheriffmuir, and to my eye these all look great. I have also seen the chart that Matt Newsome posted.

But just because others here think it looks good, that doesn't mean that it is considered appropriate from a "can I enter this white tie event?" standpoint. And beyond the "can I get in the door?" question there is the "how will it be received by those who know all the detailed regulations regarding white tie attire who are in attendance here?"

This is what I am getting at. If you look at the Kinloch Anderson page for this jacket, for instance:

http://www.kinlochanderson.com/sheri...-special-order

then you will see that although they photographed the model without a Jabot, they feel the need to put a caveat in the description that it is usually worn with a jabot.

Many other sources say jabot only.

Having said that, many seem to be wearing it otherwise these days but I'm not really sure how proper it would be to do so, in particular at a white tie event.

Is a stock tie appropriate at a white tie event? Can a white bow tie (which is what is usually the standard at these events) be worn with a sheriffmuir doublet? If not, is there an acceptable alternative to the jabot that is considered proper for white tie?

I'm new to this level of formality and I like this jacket a lot but if the jabot is the only thing that is proper for white tie then I think it is off the table for me so to speak.

I really appreciate the feedback. Thank you all for taking the time to give your input.

[CeilidhDoc]

PS--I'm still in the stage of having all of my posts needing to be manually reviewed by a moderator which is preventing me from replying in a timely fashion. Please forgive the delayed nature of my replies, clarifications, etc as I have no control over this.

Cheers and many thanks.

[CeilidhDoc]

From the ElegantAscot website is this manner of tying a regency cravat:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-73404718658914_2269_102226

although this example is in black, it clearly emulates a bow tie effect. If done with a white tie, I wonder if this would be within guidelines at a white tie event.

Thank you for pointing me back to this vendor as I have purchased from them in the past for silk cravats to wear ruched but never looked at the regency ascots before.

Slainte

[CeilidhDoc]

One of the things to remember is that the Sheriffmuir is in effect a two part garment, usually worn with a high cut waistcoat (six button), usually round neck.

A full jabot will cover and hide the top of the waistcoat. A stock, bow tie or a cravat will not.

A Sheriffmuir can be worn without a waistcoat or with a three button waistcoat, but doesn't that defeat the object of wearing a Sheriffmuir?

Is there some rule for white tie that the top of the waistcoat for a sheriffmuir must be covered over by the neckwear of which I am not aware?

I actually quite like the sheriffmuir with the top of the waistcoat showing but perhaps this is not proper?

School me as this reply was not one I anticipated and perhaps there is something I need to know here.

Cheers.

[Chas]

Is there some rule for white tie that the top of the waistcoat for a sheriffmuir must be covered over by the neckwear of which I am not aware?

I actually quite like the sheriffmuir with the top of the waistcoat showing but perhaps this is not proper?

School me as this reply was not one I anticipated and perhaps there is something I need to know here.

Cheers.

Hi CeilidhDoc,

I think the main thing to remember is that Highland Dress is essentially a free dress. If it looks right is is right.

Personally, I think that the top of the Sheriffmuir waistcoat should be covered - but there is no rule saying it has to be. A white bow tie with a marcella or piqué, three button, waistcoat would look unmistakeably 'white tie'.

As it happens, I think the Kinloch Anderson picture is particularly hideous and shows why the top should be covered.

[cable scot]

I wear a off-white cravat with my sheriffmuir for white tie events. No one has ever said it was not proper. There are always one or two other men in TCHD at the events as well, and they didn't find any thing improper with my choice of neckwear either. I feel that you may be over thinking this a bit, I can't imagine anyone stopping you at the door because you are not wearing a jabot and cuffs. Any "kilt cops" at the event may be told that as an adult you get to pick your own style of neckwear.

[CeilidhDoc]

Hi CeilidhDoc,

I think the main thing to remember is that Highland Dress is essentially a free dress. If it looks right is is right.

Personally, I think that the top of the Sheriffmuir waistcoat should be covered - but there is no rule saying it has to be. A white bow tie with a marcella or piqué, three button, waistcoat would look unmistakeably 'white tie'.

As it happens, I think the Kinloch Anderson picture is particularly hideous and shows why the top should be covered.

Thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated! Do you think this is a common sentiment? I do agree the the Kinloch Anderson photo is not that great, but I used the link to highlight their caveat about the jabot, particularly since they are the royal jacketmakers and such. In general I think their photos aren't that great. Macgregor and Macduff do a better job with photos and videos, but leave the sheriffmuir to their bespoke kings club (if they make them at all).

Slainte

[CeilidhDoc]

I wear a off-white cravat with my sheriffmuir for white tie events. No one has ever said it was not proper. There are always one or two other men in TCHD at the events as well, and they didn't find any thing improper with my choice of neckwear either. I feel that you may be over thinking this a bit, I can't imagine anyone stopping you at the door because you are not wearing a jabot and cuffs. Any "kilt cops" at the event may be told that as an adult you get to pick your own style of neckwear.

Thanks! That is helpful. I appreciate hearing about your personal experience with this combo at white tie events.

[MacLowlife]

CD, I am of two distinct minds on this. My white tie experience ( which has been lengthy enough to wear out a pair of gloves ) is purely Saxon. My kilt experience is pretty varied. Here is the problem: Saxon white tie is pretty darned narrow. The only room for variation is maybe in choice of footwear and whether or not to wear a watch. ( My crowd are not given to sash wearing, probably because we don't have any.) OTOH, the Free Dress aspect of Highland Dress gets full expression from me. SO, I am not sure what to recommend. I'd recommend ( well, maybe I AM sure) that you view as many pictures and films, etc, as you can, of events like the Caledonian ball.

I think much of the advice above is good. I think you may well find yourself at the adventurous end of the spectrum one night whilst everyone else is slightly less so. That is called cutting a dashing figure. Just keep your eyes peeled and resolve to hew a little closer to the center the next time.

Specifically, I agree about the jabot without cuffs and a less lacy jabot or other white neck-gear. And I also think you would be in very good company if you chose to wear a white marcella/ pique waistcoat and white tie with your Sherrifmuir.