What would you do?

[piperdbh]

My answers to your last 4 questions: yes, no, no, yes.

[Downunder Kilt]

On the issue of patents, could the Utilikilt one be explained? Is it just the way the pleats run, towards the back from each side to meet in the middle of the back without the external kingussie style pleat. (If this sidetracks the thread please remove)

[ASinclair]

Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard? YES

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks? NO

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder? NO

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard? Ethics overrides price

And Steve, thank you, sir, for providing this wonderful Home for the Kilted Rabble.

[Steve Ashton]

Anyone can do a search of the US Patent office database. Steven Villegas was given patent no. 6,282,723 on 9 Nov 2000.

Or click here.

[Downunder Kilt]

Anyone can do a search of the US Patent office database. Steven Villegas was giving patent no. 6,282,723 on 9 Nov 2000.

Or click here.

Much obliged Steve, did not realise it was so easy to get over there. Cheers

[RockyR]

As an advertiser I probably shouldn't weigh in, but I think it's okay for the professional photographer part of me to throw out his $0.02 USD.

Ratspike... I don't see any "conflict of interest" here with you weighing in. As an advertiser, this directly affects you and your voice should be heard as well.

[Canuck]

I find myself having a bit of conflict of interest here as not only am I a member but a former advertiser (Robert Pel of RKilts). I will answer the questions and then provide comment.

If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company?
No I would not. On a side note what I find is that it may put into question where the original company got their product from as one may perceive that both companies share the same supplier yet one is offering it for considerably less or the other is marking it up considerably more. (see other posts above that have clarified this better)

Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here?.
No This has been a constant battle for my company, and a big thank you has to go out to members here for helping me track the offenders down.
Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent?
No. But given the reference here. In 2003 I was contacted by the patent holder to discuss this issue regarding one of my products. As a result of that conversation no further action was taken by either party

Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here?
Answered above

Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard?
Yes

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks?
No

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder?
No

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?
This is where my moral compass kicks in. If you will notice my join date (upper right hand corner), I joined the second day this site went public. At that time there were no advertisers. The site was geared to providing information, getting folk into quality wear. The members , and owners worked hard to accomplish that. (Rocky has explained it well, on the evolution of xmarks)
Knowing what goes into making a product, I have a hard time supporting industries that exploit their workers to getting that product to market. I see it in our kilt related industry.
So I have made a conscientious effort, to not support companies that do support these practices.
In Canada a majority of the Highland games allow resellers of questionable product to vend, I have chosen not to support these games.
As always the consumer can dictate on who they wish to support or not, and that is what it should be.
Cheers

[Tobus]

I started to read all the responses here, but I don't have time to go through it all, and it wouldn't change what I'm about to say anyway.

In short, I think ethics are perhaps the single most important thing that makes or breaks a company/business, a website/forum like this one, or a community. There are many things that can cause the downfall of an otherwise successful entity, but an unethical practice is a guarantee of failure. And it's because ethics = character.

Let's not confuse patent laws with ethics. There are many things which are legal but unethical. And, for that matter, there are many things which are illegal but perfectly ethical. We would all like to think that laws and ethics go hand-in-hand, but that is not always the case. So IMHO the topic of patent laws here is irrelevant. Even if a company is operating within the boundaries of the law where they live, if they are operating unethically, they do not deserve the respect or business of anyone who cherishes ethics (as I would hope all of our members do). We are not a government entity, and are free to choose our own standards independently of the law.

With that said, I think all of the questions posed come down to this single issue: if we allow unethical practices, or reward them, then we don't really have any ethics of our own.

So my answer is pretty straightforward. No, we should not allow businesses to advertise here who are engaged in unethical practices of any sort. And yes, we should expect businesses who do advertise here to be unquestioningly ethical, moral, honest, and of the highest calibre. I know of at least one former XMTS advertiser who was shown the door due to unethical/questionable practices, and we are better off for it.

If we don't hold ourselves, our members, and our advertisers to an ethical standard, then we have nothing of value.

[Kylahullu]

How about copyrights and patents? As you may or may not know copyrights and patents are effective only in the countries where they are filed. It may not be against the law to copy a design of another company, with a UK copyright, if you are not operating in the UK.
....
I know and understand that these questions are of an ethical nature. Business practices vary in different countries. In some countries it is not only completely legal, it is expected, that one company will produce virtually identical products of another company if they are finding that it will sell.

A company doing so is not breaking any laws. This makes my questions a matter of ethics.

A delicate question. There are rumours that in some "western country" it is "normal business action" to claim a patent over something someone somewhere else has been producing in smaller (but profitable) amounts for a long time, but has not claimed a patent on. The original producer just has not had enough legal knowledge or funds to claim a patent valid in "that western country". So, there we are. The original producer is making and doing business on something he has no right to do by the law of that "western country".

Maybe this has something in common with:

This question is a bit dicier as US patent laws are antiquated and out of step. Witness the examples we see litigated every day, with Internet trolls, "click and buy" Samsung vs Apple, etc etc. I think if a substantive argument could be made in the copyright holders position I could accept that. Can anyone honestly tell me, why UK has a patent and if they accept it what the rationale is? I am open minded, but being in the technology industry where so many crazy patents are filed I would like to understand this better.

What I am trying to say is that while laws, patents and copyrights are to be obeyed it is not always easy to make a judgement what is the right or ethical way to proceed.

A judge (or a person making a judgement) should always remember an old advice to judges: "All law shall by applied with wisdom, because the greatest justice is the greatest injustice, and mercy shall be included in all justice." Original text in old Swedish: "All Lagh bör medh Beskedelighet driffuin warda: Förty högsta rätt är största orätt, och moste Råden wara med rätten". This quote is from 450 years old judicial instructions still printed in Finnish and Swedish printed law books. (If you want to see more: http://213214137012.edelkey.net/en/E...tuomarinohjeet )

The laws differ by place and time. What is seen as an ethical way to act differs as well, or does it...?

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks? No blanket rule, case by case basis see my rationale above.

My Aye to this.

So, my final questions are to you, the members of X Marks.
Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard?

Yes

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks?

Basically no, but see above...

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder?

Basically no, but... might end up not buying at all.

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?

No

Maybe this was a bit long detour but I think you are now asking something very essential for the future of this site. What I have seen so far I am very confident on your actions.
My 2 euro sents.

[creagdhubh]

Many of you keenly stated what I was initially thinking in regards to Steve's questions, so I will not bore you with the redundancy of repeating what has already been said. I will say that I agree completely and most closely associate my thoughts and feelings on the subject with the responses given by both Scott (Artificer) and Nathan.