Even More Fun with DNA

[Hawk]

All involved in these type of DNA testing, please keep us apprised of results and satisfaction and how to go about reading these. Thanks.

Hawk

[J Ross]

I have another quick question for McElmurry: can you explain or link to a good article about why as the Y markers tested increase the generations back decreases?

I'll do some searches and if I find the answer first I'll adjust this posting.

[frank_a]

I thought the ancestry.com dna results would be much more specific than they were. They dangle specific possibilities in your background, but my results were simply general. 60 some % western European, 20 some % Irish (which includes Scotland). Really of very little use to me in terms of finding the Campbell that came over from Scotland, but for 99 bucks, I really can't complain. It is what it is.

Frank

[McElmurry]

I have another quick question for McElmurry: can you explain or link to a good article about why as the Y markers tested increase the generations back decreases?

I'll do some searches and if I find the answer first I'll adjust this posting.

Is this question in reference to FTDNA 37, 67, and 111 marker testing? Can you link where you read this so I know the context of your question?

[McElmurry]

I thought the ancestry.com dna results would be much more specific than they were. They dangle specific possibilities in your background, but my results were simply general. 60 some % western European, 20 some % Irish (which includes Scotland). Really of very little use to me in terms of finding the Campbell that came over from Scotland, but for 99 bucks, I really can't complain. It is what it is.

Frank

Autosomal testing, such as ancestry.com, looks at locations on all of you chromosomes, not just the Y, and compares your results to databases of people whose grandparents come from a specific region of the old country. It also compares you to other people tested by the same company. The results lead to general interpretations such as portions of your chromosomes look similar to a group of people who are believed to represent populations before mass migration to the Americas. This could be useful if you want to know if you are really 25 percent Amerindian. You may also get notices that 0.75 percent of your chromosomes matches person X. You can then contact person X and compare your family trees. This could be useful if you were adopted or if you want to add bulk to your family tree.

Many of us are more interested in lineal studies, that is we want to go straight back one or more male lines at least across the pond and hopefully further. In this case we are looking for specific branches on the Y chromosome known as SNPs. According to this link.

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_...mparison_chart

Your test included 885 Y SNPs. By comparison the test I took at 23andMe included 2329 Y SNPs and they were able to place me at R1b-L21. This would have been a state of the art result four years ago but the know tree has grown tremendously since that time. Currently, Scotland DNA test 14,500 Y SNPs and Full Genome tests about 46,000 Y SNPs (see link below).

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_SNP_testing_chart


If your Y chromosome is from said Campbell it might be possible for the Campbell project to look at the 885 SNPs and at least give you some idea what part of the tree you are on. Then you could optimize future testing.

[J Ross]

Is this question in reference to FTDNA 37, 67, and 111 marker testing? Can you link where you read this so I know the context of your question?

Sorry. The question is in reference to the description of the tests on the Ross DNA Project page. Click the more info on each sections. It says "related within the past XX generations"

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-...spx?Group=Ross

[McElmurry]

Sorry. The question is in reference to the description of the tests on the Ross DNA Project page. Click the more info on each sections. It says "related within the past XX generations"

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-...spx?Group=Ross

OK perfect. This is a great example of attempting to read through the sales lingo these testing groups use to get your business. I will try and translate. Keep in mind I am not an expert and I am very willing to be corrected or consider other interpretations.

For men only.
Highest level of Y-DNA tests.
111-marker matches are highly likely to be related within the past 4 generations.*
Provides genealogically relevant matches and recent ancestral origins.
Recommended for confirming a genealogical relationship with another male.
Provides your Haplogroup: deep ancestral origin of the paternal line.
We store your DNA for free so that you can upgrade the tests in the future
NO subscription fees

For men only: Yes (with very few exceptions) it is a Y DNA test so you have to have Y DNA.

Highest level of Y DNA tests: Not really. It is the largest number of STR markers offered by FTDNA but STRs have limitations. Before I go on I need to explain the limitations of STRs. Imagine you are a leaf on a tree. The closest leaf to you is two inches away. The next closest is four inches away. Which leaf is closer to you as the ant walks. If all three leaves are on the same twig you are all closely related in ant miles. But if you just happen to be at the very end of a twig and the closest leaf is on a completely different twig, on a different stem, on a different branch, the ant would have to walk a long way to get between two leaves that are only two inches apart. So the physical distance between the leaves is similar to genetic distance which is what STRs provide.

So, to answer your actual question, if you match someone closely at 12 STRs the two leaves are close together but you very well could be on very different branches. If you match someone closely at 111 STRs it is unlikely you are on very different branches and at the most are just a few twigs away.

SNPs define the forks in the branches, stems, and twigs. So all STR testing has to be confirmed with SNP testing. If you have detailed STR testing folks in a project will be able to predict which few SNPs you need to test and if you really are all on the same twig this works great. But if you just happen to be in close proximity but are not actually from the same main branch the results will be negative and you will be scratching your head.

Provides genealogically relevant matches and recent ancestral origins: Some of the matches are likely to be genetically relevant but you will need to do some targeted SNP testing to confirm which ones.

Recommended for confirming a genealogical relationship with another male. True...if you are related on paper and are a very close match, even at 12 STRs, you have just confirmed the paper trail. If you are not a close match then something is wrong with the paper trail. It could be a non-paternal event or an NPE for short. Which basically means somebody's daddy is not really their daddy, genetically speaking.

Provides your Haplogroup: deep ancestral origin of the paternal line. I believe this is actually a false statement. STRs provide a predicted haplogroup or groups but only SNPs are conclusive.

Historically STRs were less expensive and SNPs were quite expensive. So a bunch of folks would get STR tests and then folks with close matches would pool their money and get SNPs for one or two people in the group. As the cost of SNPs has come down more people are going straight to SNP testing.

[ASinclair]

This is fascinating. I'm with Hawk -- please keep us updated.

[Baker04]

I.ve done 23 and me. YDNA111. Geno 2, Scotlands DNA and Big Y. Big Y and Full Genomes are very advanced and not at all for beginners.. i would suggest you start with FTDNA YDNA 37 at least or 67 markers. Of Scottish heritage, I would suggest 67 markers for a start and join a name project. You will also get your male haplogroup which you need. I'm quite pleased with Scotlands DNA as they have a very large data base particularly of the UK and Ireland. I would advise Chromo 2 raw and join a haplotype project or Chromo 2 Complete if you want the story of your ancestry. Their geneticists are very reputable. YDNA tests STR's and SDNA tests snp's.

Lloyd

[J Ross]

This is fascinating. I'm with Hawk -- please keep us updated.

I'm with you Allen. Such wonderful responses.

I might be trading my Ross Modern Hunting for a Rose tartan!

I've contacted the administrator for the Ross DNA Project about this, but thought I'd post here too. Another member of the group who was previously tested names the same common ancestor as my family. This other individual is unknown to me. How possible is it to verify a common ancestor between us?