What is the Black Watch and What is a Royal Stewart

[Kamilavalamp]

I just read what the tartans authority has to say on both of them. I understand it now.
The Royal Stewart is a government tartan that people weren't really supposed to wear without permission but it became so popular that they made it universal.
The Black Watch Started out as basically the English equivalent of what the American Company Pinkerton used to be. A Bounty Hunter\Mercenary Company.
Then later on the Black Watch became a well respected army regiment.

[The Wizard of BC]

I don't think it would be fair to call the 42nd bounty hunters or mercenaries. I think a more apt term would be "The Night Watch".

[Liam]

I don't think it would be fair to call the 42nd bounty hunters or mercenaries. I think a more apt term would be "The Night Watch".

Someone has been watching too much "Game of Thrones".

[The Wizard of BC]

No, The Night Watch is the actual name of the policemen or constables who patrolled the streets and enforced the laws all though the night.

[figheadair]

I just read what the tartans authority has to say on both of them. I understand it now.
The Royal Stewart is a government tartan that people weren't really supposed to wear without permission but it became so popular that they made it universal.
The Black Watch Started out as basically the English equivalent of what the American Company Pinkerton used to be. A Bounty Hunter\Mercenary Company.
Then later on the Black Watch became a well respected army regiment.

I'm afraid your understanding is not quite right. The Royal Stewart did not start life as a government tartan, its origins are in the 18th century Highlands. Its early form, the Prince Charles Edward tartan, was adopted as the regimental tartan for the 72nd Duke of Albany's but later dropped when that regiment was amalgamated with the 78th. At one time the Royal Family tried to keep this as a Royal Tartan but they were too late and by that time it was widely sold as a popular fashion pattern, hence the idea that it is a universal tartan.

The Black Watch tartan has no connection to England; I assume that you have incorrectly conflated England with Britain - it's not the same thing. The Black Watch tartan is named after the regiment of the same name but that terminology dates from the mid-late 19th century. In the 18th century it was simply known as the Government Tartan and in the early 19th century the pattern was adopted by several clans that had early connections with the Independent Companies, the forerunner of the 43rd or Black Watch regiment. These clans: Campbell, Munro and Grant still wear the tartan as their own, as do the Sutherlands. This was a popular tartan is the order books of the weaving firm Wilsons of Bannockburn which they sold as 42nd (the subsequent regimental number of the Black Watch) which is why it too is often regarded as a universal tartan.

Finally, can I suggest that this thread is moved to the Tartan Place.

[figheadair]

Steve,

As ever, some of the STA/STR notes need updating/correcting. See my comments in bold below.

The Black Watch Tartan is registered with International Tartan Index number #207. Under the Scottish Register of Tartans it is number 277.

The date of its design is recorded as 1725 by Wilson's of Bannockburn. The tartan is thought to have been designed c1725 specifically for the Independent Companies, but not by Wilsons; the firm did not exist at that time.

STA notes -

"Gov. Tartan No. 1. This sett is based on Logans 'Sutherland' tartan. Various thread counts appear in Wilsons pattern books of roughly the same proportions. Documents show that this was the tartan appointed for the Highland Companies in 1725 and later for the Black Watch in 1739. Slightly different count from 42nd Regiment. Sample in STA's Scarlett Collection. Sinclair/Brown Scrapbook (started in the 1930s) proivides a particularly dark sample with the notes:" . . . worn by Earl of Sutherland 1719 [Portrait] and known to have been used by the clan and by the Gordons in the early 17th century."

There is no evidence to support these notes - they are nonsense.

SRT notes -

In 1725, General George Wade, the commander of British forces in North Britain authorised the formation of six independent companies of troops to police the Highlanders. One company was raised by Col William Grant of Ballindalloch. The companies were known locally as the 'Black Watch' and were eventually consolidated to form the 43rd (later 42nd) Royal Highland Regiment. This is misleading, the 42nd did not become the Royal highland Regiment until 1865. The Independent Companies wore a dark blue, black and green plaid which was woven by over sixty weavers in Strathspey, the country of Clan Grant. A portrait of Robert Grant of Lurg, circa 1769, is in the National War Museum at Edinburgh Castle. The painting depicts the subject in a coat and plaid in the Black Watch tartan. An early sample of the Black Watch tartan labelled 'Grant' is in the collection of Lt Gen Sir William Cockburn at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow. Another swatch of this 'Grant' tartan was added to the collection of the Highland Society of London in 1822."

There are more than one version of this Tartan and this same Sett is known by many other names.

The Royal Stewart Tartan is registered with International Tartan Index number #1375. Under the Scottish Register of Tartans it is number #3957.

STA notes -

"Count, halved to show sett, for the 600 Reed from Wilsons' 1819 KPB."

SRT notes -

"A plaid from the Hepburn Collection. Said to be very faded. This is a very large sett and has been divided by four to show here which explains the odd-numbered thread counts. The blue bordering the red bocks is often shown as azure. The best known of all Scottish tartans, the Royal Stewart is the tartan of the Royal House of Stewart and the personal tartan of the reigning monarch. Theoretically it cannot be used or worn without the express permission of HM The Queen. In pratice however, this is the most popular tartan ever woven and can be seen on a huge range of products. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle so the theory rather evaporates."

There are more versions, variants and different spellings of Stewart/Stuart than any other.

Neither set of comments on the Royal Stewart are particulalry helpful in dertermining details of its origins. They definitely need to be revised.

[tulloch]

If you use the search function in the upper right corner of the page you will come across a lot of information on this site. I think Black
Watch is a variant of the old Campbell tartan. Both Black Watch and Royal Stewart are worn by members of the Black Watch pipe band. I know there has been a lot of consolidation in Scotland of their military so look for that here as well as there has been some good description of the changes and how it has affected their pipe bands.

Origins are Scottish. Still very much around.

When the Jacobites were beaten down in 1746 the Scots were proscribed from wearing tartan or carrying weapons or having their music. The military was one place where a fellow could go and have that aspect of his culture kept alive.

There is another really nice government sett - Cameron of Erracht. Check it out. It is nice whether pleated to the sett or to the stripe.

Lots of info on this site on all of this. Hope this is helpful.

[figheadair]

In the spirit of historical accuracy;

The Black Watch (aka Government) tartan is not a varient of the old Campbell tartan. Often cited but with absolutely no proof.

Scots were not proscribed from wearing tartan after the '45; see here for a discussion - Proscription - Tartan Ban: Fact or Fiction.

If you use the search function in the upper right corner of the page you will come across a lot of information on this site. I think Black
Watch is a variant of the old Campbell tartan. Both Black Watch and Royal Stewart are worn by members of the Black Watch pipe band. I know there has been a lot of consolidation in Scotland of their military so look for that here as well as there has been some good description of the changes and how it has affected their pipe bands.

Origins are Scottish. Still very much around.

When the Jacobites were beaten down in 1746 the Scots were proscribed from wearing tartan or carrying weapons or having their music. The military was one place where a fellow could go and have that aspect of his culture kept alive.

There is another really nice government sett - Cameron of Erracht. Check it out. It is nice whether pleated to the sett or to the stripe.

Lots of info on this site on all of this. Hope this is helpful.

[IsaacW]

Scots were not proscribed from wearing tartan after the '45; see here for a discussion - Proscription - Tartan Ban: Fact or Fiction.

Neither bagpipes nor music were banned either!

[tulloch]

See what I mean? Tons of information on this site. Good luck!