McIntyre tartan

[Terry Searl]

(I think this may sound very rude but I'm trying to be helpful.)

How can you possibly be Scottish - you are a US American and, as I understand it, you are not allowed joint citizenship with another nation. Despite its title, 99.99% of membership of this site are likewise not Scots. Of course, some fraction of their ancestry might be of Scottish origin and, before that, Viking, French, English, Italian, Polish ...
Concern with one's forebears seems to be a particularly US thing which we don't really understand in the UK - seems to be something to do with "roots". For example, an English person with one or both Scottish parents might subconsciously be aware of such descent but few would take note of a Scots grandparent or anything further back. Think of recent UK Prime Ministers with names like MacMillan, Home, Blair, Cameron - they would not be regarded by themselves or anyone else as anything but English. In the same way, although many Scots are of recent Irish extraction, they think of themselves only as Scots. And we have 100% Scots with surnames such as Patel, D'Agostino, Ng - our next door neighbour is a very patriotic member of the clan Mojsiewicz.
Most Scots have no concern about clans/families - they smack too much of feudalism for such a relatively left-wing country (no politics,please). So they would wear their clan tartan if they have a clan (generally by reason of surname) but that's about as far as it goes. They would probably know very little of their clan's history - why would they, what use would it be?
I'm afraid, if you want to be Scots, you have to be born in Scotland or live in Scotland. That does not, of course, preclude you from enjoying Scottish history, our national dress, our languages, music and culture generally and we are grateful for your interest and enthusiasm. Keep it up!

Alan

I have noticed these same situations with our Irish relatives.....when we asked about those further in history passed the great grandfather or grandmother they have little interest

[neloon]

"Some groups living in immigrant nations, especially recent arrivals hold on to a strong sense of their native lands while other groups who have lived in the new country for generations at some point seek to find their roots and where they fit in a greater sense." RSHAW, post #10
It's an interesting socio/ethno/anthropological puzzle and I have no expertise in these disciplines. I understand what you mean by "immigrant nations" but I don't see why such seeking for roots should be peculiar to them - maybe the relative remoteness from "homeland" is a factor. So Scots are not really so "marooned" in England as they would feel in, say, the US because they are within a few hundred miles of home and therefore do not hand on a feeling of loss to their descendents. On the other hand, I suspect that , for example, Asians in the UK retain a cultural identity with their origins but only for a generation or so by which time the language barrier has broken the link. Is that replicated in the US? Within Europe, migrants fleeing persecution or hard times have come as much (though not in absolute numbers) to the UK as to the US but we do not have Greek/Italian/Polish etc. societies to preserve cultural identities to anything like the extent to which seems to happen in the US. Maybe distance, once again. Are US desires to connect with Scotland growing stronger and, if so, is that in part due to the internet and the general availability of information such as via genealogical records, XMarks etc.?

Alan

[davidlpope]

(I think this may sound very rude but I'm trying to be helpful.)

How can you possibly be Scottish - you are a US American and, as I understand it, you are not allowed joint citizenship with another nation. Despite its title, 99.99% of membership of this site are likewise not Scots. Of course, some fraction of their ancestry might be of Scottish origin and, before that, Viking, French, English, Italian, Polish ...
Concern with one's forebears seems to be a particularly US thing which we don't really understand in the UK - seems to be something to do with "roots". For example, an English person with one or both Scottish parents might subconsciously be aware of such descent but few would take note of a Scots grandparent or anything further back. Think of recent UK Prime Ministers with names like MacMillan, Home, Blair, Cameron - they would not be regarded by themselves or anyone else as anything but English. In the same way, although many Scots are of recent Irish extraction, they think of themselves only as Scots. And we have 100% Scots with surnames such as Patel, D'Agostino, Ng - our next door neighbour is a very patriotic member of the clan Mojsiewicz.
Most Scots have no concern about clans/families - they smack too much of feudalism for such a relatively left-wing country (no politics,please). So they would wear their clan tartan if they have a clan (generally by reason of surname) but that's about as far as it goes. They would probably know very little of their clan's history - why would they, what use would it be?
I'm afraid, if you want to be Scots, you have to be born in Scotland or live in Scotland. That does not, of course, preclude you from enjoying Scottish history, our national dress, our languages, music and culture generally and we are grateful for your interest and enthusiasm. Keep it up!

Alan

Alan,

You've hit on a very big difference between the United States and the Scotland.

The United States is a very big nation, covering the same geography as that between Syria and Portugal. It is composed of a wide range of ethnicities, and these ethnicities are usually grouped in a particular region of the nation, resulting in a very heterogeneous population. It's also a very young nation. Even the earliest immigrants to these shores came just over 300 years ago.

When Americans say, "I am Scottish" or "I am German", what they actually mean is "At least a few of my ancestors, perhaps very distant, are from Scotland/Germany." Since Americans don't really have a shared national culture/history/experience they often look towards a more distant origin where there is a particular and pronounced culture. Saying "I am an American" just doesn't communicate much about a person's background or culture.

I am often surprised that Sean Connery and Billy Connelly are put forward as quintessential Scots. They're of Irish paternal descent. It seems odd to me that they would so quickly assimilate, particularly when the "auld sod" is so close geographically. As you often hear in the South, "If a cat had kittens in the oven it wouldn't make them biscuits..."

[WillowEstate]

Alan, Post #8,



A very thoughtful and thought provoking contribution. You make an excellent distinction between birthright (where we were born), which may or may not include nationality and ancestry (where our forebears came from). You are right, also that residents and or nationals of relatively young countries appear to be much more concerned with ancestry than those of the “old world”. When I worked for an American company but based in the UK, we had a lot of transatlantic visitors. A colleague used to delight in pointing at his house and declaring “This is older than America!” (it was, by a good 50 years).



I was born in England, of parents also born in England, so I fit perfectly into your definition of “English”, though if you were to ask my nationality, I would claim “British”, because The Union is important to me, not, note, “UK” or “European”. Beyond my grandparents, I have no idea of the history or origin of their predecessors, nor is it of any great importance to me – as you say, what use would it be? I am content with who I am in the here and now.



I do have a tenuous link to the Scottish military, through the wonderful couple who gave back to my father, the will to live, after he was injured during the second world war and spent many months in a military hospital. While I do wear the kilt this gentleman bequeathed to me and carry his given name, in no way do I regard myself as Scots.


So my country is England, my nationality British and beyond that, I am a citizen of the world and I am comfortable with that, despite residing on the other side of the planet.


I came to love Scotland, particularly the far north west coast, on many holidays there, much as I do Yosemite National Park in California and the wild places here in Australia. These allow me to appreciate the diversity of the culture and customs of our world; XMTS itself is a great example of our differences but with a shared enjoyment of our common interest in all things Scottish. But at heart, I am still me!


Apologies to the OP for drifting off topic.

[neloon]

I am often surprised that Sean Connery and Billy Connelly are put forward as quintessential Scots. They're of Irish paternal descent. It seems odd to me that they would so quickly assimilate, particularly when the "auld sod" is so close geographically.

But, as I said above, that's the way it is. For both, you would have to go two generations back to find a slender connection with Ireland and no desire to dwell on the despair that must have given rise to the move. Scotland has such a rich cultural environment that there is no pressure to look anywhere else unless financial reward beckons. And the same seems to be true for other ethnicities although those of Italian descent often maintain links with relatives for more than a generation.

Anyway here is the "Big Yin" finding out about a strand of his ancestry . Even some kilts! Go right to the end. Is he Irish? British? Scots? ... Indian?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIMmTkKRpGw

Slightly ironical for me, the stately home you see in the documentary is Candacraig House which was one of the seats of my clan, owned by Billy for a number of years
http://www.deesidepiper.co.uk/news/l...r-3m-1-3071373

Alan

[davidlpope]

Anyway here is the "Big Yin" finding out about a strand of his ancestry . Go right to the end. Is he Irish? British? Scots? ... Indian?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIMmTkKRpGw

From what I've found online I would say that Connolly's descent is roughly 3/4 Irish and 1/4 Highland Scot.

I guess the complexity is that being a citizen/subject in some countries carries with it an ethnic/cultural identity, because the population of that country have been largely established for many centuries. In other countries, particularly newer countries which were former colonies, being a citizen/subject does not imply a particular ethnic/cultural background.

It's hard for me, being of the latter, to not make such a distinction in the case of Connolly. His nationality is Scottish. His ancestry is largely Irish.

As an American I tend to think of someone's ancestry being the origin of their ancestors, before all the "moving around" took place. In other words, how far back do you have to go before your ancestors are from the same place generation after generation?

[Liam]

(I think this may sound very rude but I'm trying to be helpful.)

How can you possibly be Scottish - you are a US American and, as I understand it, you are not allowed joint citizenship with another nation. Despite its title, 99.99% of membership of this site are likewise not Scots. Of course, some fraction of their ancestry might be of Scottish origin and, before that, Viking, French, English, Italian, Polish ...
Concern with one's forebears seems to be a particularly US thing which we don't really understand in the UK - seems to be something to do with "roots". For example, an English person with one or both Scottish parents might subconsciously be aware of such descent but few would take note of a Scots grandparent or anything further back. Think of recent UK Prime Ministers with names like MacMillan, Home, Blair, Cameron - they would not be regarded by themselves or anyone else as anything but English. In the same way, although many Scots are of recent Irish extraction, they think of themselves only as Scots. And we have 100% Scots with surnames such as Patel, D'Agostino, Ng - our next door neighbour is a very patriotic member of the clan Mojsiewicz.
Most Scots have no concern about clans/families - they smack too much of feudalism for such a relatively left-wing country (no politics,please). So they would wear their clan tartan if they have a clan (generally by reason of surname) but that's about as far as it goes. They would probably know very little of their clan's history - why would they, what use would it be?
I'm afraid, if you want to be Scots, you have to be born in Scotland or live in Scotland. That does not, of course, preclude you from enjoying Scottish history, our national dress, our languages, music and culture generally and we are grateful for your interest and enthusiasm. Keep it up!

Alan

Now Alan, he was, I'm sure referring to his ancestry not his citizenship. I have related this before but will do so again - my brother-in-law claims to be Canadian by citizenship, English by birth and Scottish by absorption.
😉

[Jock Scot]

Alan,

You've hit on a very big difference between the United States and the Scotland.

The United States is a very big nation, covering the same geography as that between Syria and Portugal. It is composed of a wide range of ethnicities, and these ethnicities are usually grouped in a particular region of the nation, resulting in a very heterogeneous population. It's also a very young nation. Even the earliest immigrants to these shores came just over 300 years ago.

When Americans say, "I am Scottish" or "I am German", what they actually mean is "At least a few of my ancestors, perhaps very distant, are from Scotland/Germany." Since Americans don't really have a shared national culture/history/experience they often look towards a more distant origin where there is a particular and pronounced culture. Saying "I am an American" just doesn't communicate much about a person's background or culture.

I am often surprised that Sean Connery and Billy Connelly are put forward as quintessential Scots. They're of Irish paternal descent. It seems odd to me that they would so quickly assimilate, particularly when the "auld sod" is so close geographically. As you often hear in the South, "If a cat had kittens in the oven it wouldn't make them biscuits..."

"Saying I am an American", or wherever is all that needs to be said in Scots eyes and mind.

Russian, New Zealand, Peru, Mars, wherever is enough to a Scot. Don't forget that the Scots have interesting connections of the past too. I can count Australian, Russian, German, French(from three different directions),English and possibly, probably even, other international connections too. Am I a one off in Scotland with these connections? Hardly. To a Scot we are what we are and frankly no one here is interested in my roots, or in the roots most other Scots either. To us that is just a personal thing that we may or may not even know about, or care, but most certainly it does not occur to us that anyone else might be interested in the slightest , apart on rare occasion with our immediate family. If I went about claiming that I was French/Australian/Russian/wherever as I could, the locals would think I was completely mad.

Each to their own, is of course everyone's prerogative, but speaking personally and as a Scot and as a Brit., I find all this public chat about our ancestors is rather tiresome, unnecessary and frankly, no one else's business. A "how do you do, I am Jock Scot from Scotland and you are Elmer Fudd from America, or wherever" is all I and most from the UK need to know.

Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here.

[davidlpope]

"Saying I am an American", or wherever is all that needs to be said in Scots eyes and mind.

Russian, New Zealand, Peru, Mars, wherever is enough to a Scot. Don't forget that the Scots have interesting connections of the past too. I can count Australian, Russian, German, French(from three different directions),English and possibly, probably even, other international connections too. Am I a one off in Scotland with these connections? Hardly. To a Scot we are what we are and frankly no one here is interested in my roots, or in the roots most other Scots either. To us that is just a personal thing that we may or may not even know about, or care, but most certainly it does not occur to us that anyone else might be interested in the slightest , apart on rare occasion with our immediate family. If I went about claiming that I was French/Australian/Russian/wherever as I could, the locals would think I was completely mad.

Each to their own, is of course everyone's prerogative, but speaking personally and as a Scot and as a Brit., I find all this public chat about our ancestors is rather tiresome, unnecessary and frankly, no one else's business. A "how do you do, I am Jock Scot from Scotland and you are Elmer Fudd from America, or wherever" is all I and most from the UK need to know.

Jock,

Thanks for your post. A few follow-up questions:

What, exactly, do you intend to communicate when you say to someone, "I am Jock Scot from Scotland"? Does it mean the same thing if the speaker is a native of Spain, recently immigrated, naturalized, and living in Dundee?

Does "I am Jock Scot from Scotland" communicate a different message than "I am Jock Scot, a Scot"?

[Motorcyclist]

O Wonderful Wizard,

I did exactly as stated below. First, I started with Paper, and while paper has ran out, the only thing I know is my people are from Sandy Mush, Bumcombe Co, in the mountains of Asheville; which is the Southern Appalachian Mountains.

While visiting a music store, Dulicmer Shop in Townsend TN, the lady there mentioned the Scottish settled the Appalachian mountains. That is all I know, and I was hoping to find my Scottish heritage, if it exists. Hence, the using of Paper and thinking McIntyre or McEntyre is where it has led me to.

If my people came from Asheville, and I found many connections there, does that mean I'm not Scottish? I just want to know for sure.

Your wisdom, I await, O wise one.

I'm a McEntire living in eastern, NC with family mainly from Rutherford County in western NC which appears to be beside Buncombe County. Always meant to do a little more research into family history but haven't yet gotten to it.