Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

[jfraser]

Alan, Jock,

To continue the discussion so that I can better understand your views:

Do folks in Scotland hyphenate their cultural identity? In other words, we have "African-Americans", "German-Americans", Irish-Americans", etc. Do this same practice exist in Scotland? How would a first-generation Scot of Pakistani parents describe himself?

It seems that at least some Scots of recent immigrant backgrounds think that retaining items of cultural significance are important:




Likewise, some Americans of recent immigrant backgrounds have not given up the kilt:

Do you mean something like this? This has been copied from the net, not my definition.

In Scotland the term Anglo-Scot, often shortened to Anglos, is used to refer to people born in Scotland with English ancestry. The term Anglo-Scot is more often used to describe Scottish sports players who are based in England or playing for English teams.

Or maybe:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...o__I_m_a_Scot/

[davidlpope]

---

Wow, I hadn't appreciated exactly what the population of Scotland is. I knew that in terms of geography it was about the size of South Carolina, but I'm struck by the fact that the population of North Carolina is almost twice that of Scotland.

After looking more closely at some population data, I'm also surprised that the combined populations of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are about the same as that of North Carolina alone.

[ThistleDown]

---

Wow, I hadn't appreciated exactly what the population of Scotland is. I knew that in terms of geography it was about the size of South Carolina, but I'm struck by the fact that the population of North Carolina is almost twice that of Scotland.

After looking more closely at some population data, I'm also surprised that the combined populations of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are about the same as that of North Carolina alone.

It is important to note in these census reports that the number of people in Canada who report Scottish ethnic origin exceeds the entire population of Scotland who report Scottish origin.

So, the issue here is not the nationality of each of us because that is a matter of citizenship. The questions are: If you wear a cowboy hat does that make you a Texan? If you wear a shemagh does that make you a Palestinian? If you like 'warrior' culture does that make you an 19C Cossack or a 20C Zulu or an 18C Scottish Highlander? If you like Northern California culture are you a Californian? If you like the outback does that make you Australian? If you like quaint villages with thatched roofs does that make you English?

[Reiver]

I've been thinking about the 'insecurity' comment related to outwiths wearing traditional garb.

I think Jock has a point but I don't think the proper target was struck.

I remember one of his past comments that his Son in law (I believe) was asked by his daughter why he didn't were a kilt more often and he responded "I don't want to look like a tourist"....that's his insecurity not ours.

It seems to me this kerfuffle is due to Scots insecurity not the outwiths.

As emulation is a form of praise why would Scots take offense unless they had some other issue that underlies?

Nickle and dime psychology certainly but approach it from a different angle and you may find some truth.

[neloon]

I've been thinking about the 'insecurity' comment related to outwiths wearing traditional garb.

I think Jock has a point but I don't think the proper target was struck.

I remember one of his past comments that his Son in law (I believe) was asked by his daughter why he didn't were a kilt more often and he responded "I don't want to look like a tourist"....that's his insecurity not ours.

It seems to me this kerfuffle is due to Scots insecurity not the outwiths.

As emulation is a form of praise why would Scots take offense unless they had some other issue that underlies?

Nickle and dime psychology certainly but approach it from a different angle and you may find some truth.

(I don't think it was Jock's son in law but I believe he may be away from home just now.)
Here is what he actually said
"Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here."
So the insecurity mentioned was about genealogy - not kilt-wearing.
We are all scuppered by rule #5 here which means that many potentially helpful comments cannot be made. C'est la vie

Alan

[neloon]

Perhaps I could point out that, philosophically, Scots' view of nationality is very much that it is a civic rather than an ethnic matter. This may be distantly related to the philosophy, going right back to Robert the Bruce, that the monarch is not "King of Scotland" but "King of the Scots" e.g. as in "Mary, Queen of Scots".

Alan

[Reiver]

(I don't think it was Jock's son in law but I believe he may be away from home just now.)
Here is what he actually said
"Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here."
So the insecurity mentioned was about genealogy - not kilt-wearing.
We are all scuppered by rule #5 here which means that many potentially helpful comments cannot be made. C'est la vie

Alan

Yes, but there is an implied relationship regardless as this site is about kilt wearing and not genealogy and that is basically the rendered implication.
The example I pointed out is also germane as it relates to the outwith issue and the application (to some) of Scots garb in/to the negative.

After reading numerous comments/posts/threads about the Scots attitude about visitors (of Scots decent) wearing a kilt etc. it is simply my own conclusion....a basic schizophrenia if you will....exporting, selling and promoting an item(s) of wear and Scottishness yet somewhat insulted when it actually materializes.

You're not a true Scot but I'd love to sell you all of the garb (you know it's very dear to make so pull out the folding money) but please don't wear it here as you're not a true Scot.

That seems a tad insecure to me at least.

[Jock Scot]

(I don't think it was Jock's son in law but I believe he may be away from home just now.)
Here is what he actually said
"Is it insecurity that causes some of those from outwith these shores to delve so earnestly into their past? Again, is it insecurity that these distant connections to past times, long gone now, that so much is made of them? I think probably so.I find it strange that the Canadians and Americans that I have met are immensely proud of their country, but they above all other nations have this need to cling to the past. The same goes for other nationalities that I have met, there is still this need, but markedly less so and they too are proud of their respective countries and quite right too, but this rather desperate(sorry) clinging to the past is baffling to most over here."
So the insecurity mentioned was about genealogy - not kilt-wearing.
We are all scuppered by rule #5 here which means that many potentially helpful comments cannot be made. C'est la vie

Alan

Riever.

Neither Sally or Harry are related to me. Both of them and their respective families are long term friends though. I should add, as you mention it, that Harry is an exceedingly confident young man who has grown up with the kilt as did his(Sally's too) ancestors. He does indeed have issues with the kilt from a certain perspective, but insecurity is definitely not one of them!

Whilst this is a kilt website , this discussion in this particular thread is taking place in the "Genealogical Section". We are not discussing who can and cannot wear the kilt or in fact, the kilt at all. We are discussing how someone from outwith Scotland, with distant connections to Scotland, can claim to be Scots.

Many of us over the years have discussed who and who cannot wear the kilt and you know full well, that is a discussion that goes nowhere fast and is best left well alone. We are in this thread discussing a completely different aspect-------genealogy-------in the hope of greater international understanding which should be informative to many members here.