Masonic Tartan

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Thank you Todd and Sav.

THAT'S what I'm talking about!!!!!!!!!

Now, for those who are Masons...

If it doesn't infringe on anything that's "none of my business" (so to speak;) ), are there any formal or ceremonial times when the tartans are being used?

I would HATE to get a request to make some trews, only to find that they're inappropriate or a "no no".

[M. A. C. Newsome]

OK, folks. First of all, my apologies for starting a thread that had the potential of getting out of hand. I didn't quite realize how strongly y'all felt on both sides of the issue.

Er... Methinks that people might be a little overly sensitive here. What offensive or derogatory things have been posted that might cause someone's feelings to get hurt?

Ron made the comment that he didn't think he could be a Mason because he was not Christian. Bill replied that Masons were open to people of all religions, which is true. I responded with further information that, in point of fact, many Christian bodies either expressly forbid their members from becoming Masons, or strongly discourage it. All of this is just factual information that has been passed on.

No one here has said anything derogatory or mean about Masons or any similar group. I suppose someone on the list who is a Mason and is also a member of one of the churches who forbid Masonry might be upset to find out the conflict of interest if he didn't know about it already. But then that's something that he needs to work out with his lodge and his church, and really, we are doing him a favor to bring it to his attention. But aside from that, how has anything said in this thread been offensive to anyone?

In response to Jimmy's question about should a kiltmaker who is not a Mason be handling the cloth for the kilts, I don't see a conflict. I could certainly see why a Mason might want to patron a fellow Mason kiltmaker (much like if there is a kiltmaker in your clan society you might want to patron him or her), if he knew onw, but there is no requirement for it. I'm not a Mason, and my religion forbids me from becoming one, but if someone who was a Mason wanted me to make them a kilt, there is no moral, ethical, or social reason that I couldn't do so. I've made kilts for people from regimental tartans for regiments I don't belong to, clan tartans from clans I do not descend from, and district tartans from places that I do not live in. So I don't see why this should be any different.

Aye,
Matt

[sav]

Allow me to clarify. Mr. Newsome, all I meant was that the potential existed for heated discussion, which can, at times, become hurtful. I just wanted the thread to stay on topic, is all. However, it has turned in a good direction, thanks to Jimmy's specific questions. Thanks again, Mr. Newsome (and all others, for that matter), for your input! Keep this informative thread going for a bit!
~Sav

[macwilkin]

Er... Methinks that people might be a little overly sensitive here. What offensive or derogatory things have been posted that might cause someone's feelings to get hurt?

Ron made the comment that he didn't think he could be a Mason because he was not Christian. Bill replied that Masons were open to people of all religions, which is true. I responded with further information that, in point of fact, many Christian bodies either expressly forbid their members from becoming Masons, or strongly discourage it. All of this is just factual information that has been passed on.

No one here has said anything derogatory or mean about Masons or any similar group. I suppose someone on the list who is a Mason and is also a member of one of the churches who forbid Masonry might be upset to find out the conflict of interest if he didn't know about it already. But then that's something that he needs to work out with his lodge and his church, and really, we are doing him a favor to bring it to his attention. But aside from that, how has anything said in this thread been offensive to anyone?

In response to Jimmy's question about should a kiltmaker who is not a Mason be handling the cloth for the kilts, I don't see a conflict. I could certainly see why a Mason might want to patron a fellow Mason kiltmaker (much like if there is a kiltmaker in your clan society you might want to patron him or her), if he knew onw, but there is no requirement for it. I'm not a Mason, and my religion forbids me from becoming one, but if someone who was a Mason wanted me to make them a kilt, there is no moral, ethical, or social reason that I couldn't do so. I've made kilts for people from regimental tartans for regiments I don't belong to, clan tartans from clans I do not descend from, and district tartans from places that I do not live in. So I don't see why this should be any different.

Aye,
Matt

Matt,

I simply expressed my concern that this thread could turn nasty if not careful, much like the thread about the clergy tartan a couple of months ago.

Cheers,

Todd

[Jimmy Carbomb]

In response to Jimmy's question about should a kiltmaker who is not a Mason be handling the cloth for the kilts, I don't see a conflict.

D'oh... let me clarify what I meant by that one. It's not about an "authentic kiltmaker" so much as an "authentic kilt".

"should" a kilt maker NOT in the Masons be handling the material for kilts that may not be "authentic".

What that meant was... are there kilts that would be considered inappropriate? The Masons would know the intricacies of an authentic Masons kilt, whereas someone that makes casual kilts may not. I doubt that a SportKilt in the Masons Tartan would be received very well.;)

Are the Masons relaxed with the tartan (in order to promote their image) or is it a formal matter in its infancy?

[sav]

Jimmy:
Because this is technically an "open" tartan, I would imagine a kiltmaker would be free to do what he pleases with the cloth. That being said, because of the nature of this particular tartan, I'm not sure if a kilt beyond the traditional style would be appropriate. And this goes for many tartans, not just this one. For instance, I'm not sure the cadets at VMI would take it very well if someone made a contemporary kilt in the Virginia Military Institute tartan. ;) In my opinion, thought has to be given to the intent of creating the tartan. Hope that helps.
~Sav

[Doc Hudson]

1 -- Scottish connection to Masonry -- The oldest lodge with continuous records is in Scotland, can't remember the name of the lodge but records go back to the 14th Century.

2 - Religions and Masonry - I'm not going to argue, but I will state a few facts. Many religious leaders, included some noted Catholics are and have been Mason. Such well known religious figures as Dr. Norman Vincent Peal, and Peter Marshall have been Masons, as have lesser known religious leaders such as Father Francisco Calvo (the Catholic Priest who organized the first Masonic lodge in Costa Rica), B.H. Carroll (First president of Southwestern Seminary and instrumental in the creation of the Department of Evangelism of the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention), Rev. John T. Christian (First president of Southwestern Seminary and instrumental in the creation of the Department of Evangelism of the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention), Montague Graham Clark, JR. (Presbyterian minister and President of the School of the Ozarks), Bishop Geopffrey Fisher, (Archbishop of Canterbury, and President of the World Council of Churches), Herschell Harold Hobbs ( An ordained Southern Baptist minister for 69 years, he wrote at least 147 books and Bible commentaries used in Southern Baptist churches, and was president of the Southern Baptist Convention from 1961-63), John Wesley Lord, (a United Methodist Church Bishop).

I could go on and on, but it would be a waste of time attempting to convince people who have made a decided Masonry is bad. I could post the long list of Presidents, (14 US Presidents among them), Kings, Princes, bishops, priests, ministers, politicians, generals, admirals, industrial and mercantile giants, and entertainers. But to a closed mind it would be a waste of time though entertaining to others.

We Masons are not a religious organization, and that is the very thing that make some denominations condemn us. We do not endorse any particular religious creed, but encourage our brothers to seek religious enlightenment in whatever way appeals to them. Masons welcome members of all religions, as well as people without formal religious affiliation. However, a belief in God is required, but we don't dictate what is believed about God.

If anyone is interested in seeing who some well known Masons were, you can visit: http://www.masonicinfo.com/famous.htm and http://www.durham.net/~cedar/famous.html
Both lists are far from complete, and there is lots of overlapping, but you might be surprised at some famous people who were Masons.

Matt,

Even though your comments triggered the bulk of this post, I want to be certain that you know that I hold you in high esteem and do not intend my comments to be construed as an insult to you or your religion. Apparently, I hold the Roman Catholic faith in higher regard than they hold me and Masonry.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

As far as I know, this is not a tartan intended for use in any particular ceremonies, but just a tartan for the Masons to wear. So in that regard, an individual Mason should be able to wear/display the tartan however he sees fit, be it in a tie, a vest, a traditional kilt, a contemporary kilt, a banner, or upholstery on his living room suite!

Matt

[Doc Hudson]

[QUOTE=M. A. C. Newsome]upholstery on his living room suite!QUOTE]


Considering the price of the fabric, I'd suppose this idea to be prohibitively expensive for all except the filthy rich.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Doc,

I have no doubt that individual people from any number of the churches that bar their members from Masonry have been Masons, either in ignorance of the fact that their church does not allow it, or in spite of that fact. But this does not change the fact that those churches take it as their official stance to bar members from Masonic lodge membership. Any member of such a church who decides to become a Mason anyway does so in contradiction to what his church teaches.

Does this make the Masons evil? No, it simply says that these churches have looked at things such as the oathes that Masons are asked to swear, and concluded that certain tenants expressed in Masonic oathes and ceremonies are incompatible with the tenants of their own faith. And for someone to express adherance to both at the same time would be a contradiction.

My membership in the Catholic Church, for instance, precludes me from membership in all manner of other bodies. I can't be a Baptist, a Presbyterian, or a Muslim! This is not a derogatory statement about any of these groups, but just a recognition of the fact that they profess and believe things that are contrary to what my faith teaches, so I cannot be both at the same time, even if Masonry says I can. It's akin to the fact that there is nothing in the Buddhist faith that says you cannot at the same time be a Christian. But there is much in the Christian faith that says you cannot at the same time be a Buddhist!

So I hope you don't think that my comments were in any way meant to be derogatory towards Masons. Nor am I being "close minded" about the issue. I'm just stating the facts (that few people seem to be aware of).

We Masons are not a religious organization, and that is the very thing that make some denominations condemn us.

Actually, if this were true then many of the above mentioned churches would not have a problem with members being Masons. But it is the religious elements within Masonry that present the problem. I could quote various authorities within Masonry that speak of it in very religious terms, but I'll share that information in PM if you are interested. I don't think it pertains here. In fact, if you want to continue this line of discussion, I'd be glad to, but let's take it PM.

BTW, I understand you aren't attacking me or anything, but I just wanted it to be clear that I was not attacking Masons or Masonry. Back to your regularly scheduled tartan discussion.....

Matt