Are Tartans Protcected in Law?

[Sir Robert]

I am in the SCA and they have heraldry exactly like the "protected" arms and at one point they would check to ensure that there was no duplication of somebody's real arms, now the SCA does not. When I asked why not the answer was that while there are laws in Eurpoe, no one in the SCA had ever had problems so they dropped the process.

England's Court at Arms probably is unable to protect Arms anymore as is is not a "Court" under EU rules. Scotland can but just does not, Germany can but does not bother, a case of someone falsely claiming nobility came up the other day and the German prosicutor just declined to do anything.

So there are protected things under law but you would have to moon the Queen while wearing someone elses' arms in Scotland to be prosicuted.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Laws?

It's tartan anarchy!

Aw come on. That's just funny, there!

[jfellrath]

Laws?

It's tartan anarchy!

Aw come on. That's just funny, there!

Tartanarchy?

[jkdesq]

Sir Robert,

Your tale of heraldry in decay suprizes me. I live in Canada, which within the last 30 years went through a process of obtaining from Her Majesty for our Govenor General (the Queen's vice roy in Canada) the prorogative of granting arms. The "Canadian Heraldic Authority" was created as our court of heraldry and Heralds were appointed for the regions.

It is my understanding that part of the imputes for establishing this was to facilitate and protect flags, arms, badges, etc. for First Nations (indigenous peoples in Canada). The feeling was that, although trademarks could protect a First Nations flag for renewable periods of time, a more appropriate institution to deal with this was a permenant grant of arms.

It just stricks me as ironic that the great European tradition of heraldry is dying in Europe and, possibly in the near future, the strongest heraldry insitution could be Canada's. Even more ironic that Canada's institution was created to facilitate flags etc. for non-Europeans.

I have no reason to doubt what you say, Sir Robert. I hope you're not bothered by me saying that "I hope your wrong". Could a letters patent be used in another court to protect the intellectual property of a coat of arms? Stricks me at odds with the English equitable maxim that "where there is a right, there is a remedy". English Courts should be able to deal with the issue somehow.

[Riverkilt]

I found out the hard way, some folks are just plain wrong about their beliefs in restricted tartans.

I've had a Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting tartan necktie for 30 years, love the tartan. My ancestors came from the Trotternish Peninsula of Skye. My grandfather Murdoch seeped me in the family heritage. So, my first hand sewn traditional kilt was a Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting tartan.

My first time out with this kilt was to the Arizona Highland Games. At the Clan Donald tent some twit severely dressed me down saying that tartan was reserved for the head of the clan. Just flat ticked me off, his aloof attitude, his first thing out of his mouth comment. I chose to spend my time at the Clan Cameron and Clan Gordon tents instead. Much nicer people.

Being a member of Clan Donald I made some inquiries when I got home. I was repeatedly assured by the Clan Donald heads that Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting tartan is NOT reserved for the head of the clan, that the guy was a very rude twit and they wanted HIS name to set him straight and chastise him for being so inhospitable, and that I should wear the kilt with pride. Sadly, I had no interest in getting his name when he was berating me.

I do plan to attend the Arizona Highland games next year wearing the same kilt. And, I will be seeing if I can remember him...perhaps he will come to me. There will be a manly discussion of my right to wear Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting tartan.

Ron

[macwilkin]

I found out the hard way, some folks are just plain wrong about their beliefs in restricted tartans.

I've had a Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting tartan necktie for 30 years, love the tartan. My ancestors came from the Trotternish Peninsula of Skye. My grandfather Murdoch seeped me in the family heritage. So, my first hand sewn traditional kilt was a Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting tartan.

My first time out with this kilt was to the Arizona Highland Games. At the Clan Donald tent some twit severely dressed me down saying that tartan was reserved for the head of the clan. Just flat ticked me off, his aloof attitude, his first thing out of his mouth comment. I chose to spend my time at the Clan Cameron and Clan Gordon tents instead. Much nicer people.

Being a member of Clan Donald I made some inquiries when I got home. I was repeatedly assured by the Clan Donald heads that Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting tartan is NOT reserved for the head of the clan, that the guy was a very rude twit and they wanted HIS name to set him straight and chastise him for being so inhospitable, and that I should wear the kilt with pride. Sadly, I had no interest in getting his name when he was berating me.

I do plan to attend the Arizona Highland games next year wearing the same kilt. And, I will be seeing if I can remember him...perhaps he will come to me. There will be a manly discussion of my right to wear Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting tartan.

Ron

Ron,

If you look at that article about Royal tartans on the STA's web site, you will see a comment about the Lord of the Isles tartan:

LORD OF THE ISLES HUNTING - HRH [Prince Charles] is often to be seen in this tartan when he visits Scotland and holds the title Lord of the Isles. Commercially it will appear in darker colours of green than those worn by the Prince. Emphasis mine -- tw.

So there you go. Show that to the "gentleman" who violated the tennants of Highland hospitality when he was so rude to you -- and as a MacDonald, he should know about hospitality -- anyone get the reference? :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Todd

[Riverkilt]

Thanks Todd,

Appreciate that. Will go well with the emails back from Clan Donald officials.

Sadly, there were many years I chose not to attend Highland Games just to avoid having contact with my "relatives." We are a sad commentary on evolution.

Ron

[MacConnachie]

Show that to the "gentleman" who violated the tennants of Highland hospitality when he was so rude to you -- and as a MacDonald, he should know about hospitality -- anyone get the reference? :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Todd

Todd, I was just going to suggest that maybe Ron have a swatch of a certain "Breadalbane" related tartan along, and present it to the gent in the "spirit" of such hospitality. Tartanarchy, indeed!

Ron, I really like the look of that Lord of the Isles tartan, too. I celebrate your taste in moving about so well-attired. I'm certain the Camerons and Gordons welcomed your presence.

I have said something to the following effect on "restricted" tartans in a couple of other forums, so if I'm repeating myself here, then I ask the forgiveness of the forum members. What I relate here may well apply to other clans, in whole or in part. -- Amongst the Robertsons (Clan Donnachaidh) there are a number of setts available to those who consider themselves, by various means, to be affiliated with the Clan. Those include at least 5 tartans named as "Robertson" (Red, Hunting, Ancient, Ancient Hunting and Muted/Weathered), as well as at least one for "Duncan" and perhaps others for the various septs. However, there is one that is considered reserved for the Chief, who is "styled" Struan-Robertson, or Robertson of Struan. Only the Chief and members of his immediate family are authorized to wear that particular tartan sett. While I am certain that tartan fabric manufacturers of any repute are aware of that, if I were to see someone wearing the Chief's tartan at a Highland Games or other gathering, I would carefully inquire as to that person's affiliation with the Clan before considering "going off" on him.

Ron, the fellow was, indeed, a twit. Too many self-appointed members of the "Tartan Police" running around out there, in my opinion.

[macwilkin]

Todd, I was just going to suggest that maybe Ron have a swatch of a certain "Breadalbane" related tartan along, and present it to the gent in the "spirit" of such hospitality. Tartanarchy, indeed!

Vera' guid, sir -- you when the prize for "getting" my reference! :mrgreen: I doubt very much that the git in question would even understand the symbolism.

I have said something to the following effect on "restricted" tartans in a couple of other forums, so if I'm repeating myself here, then I ask the forgiveness of the forum members. What I relate here may well apply to other clans, in whole or in part. -- Amongst the Robertsons (Clan Donnachaidh) there are a number of setts available to those who consider themselves, by various means, to be affiliated with the Clan. Those include at least 5 tartans named as "Robertson" (Red, Hunting, Ancient, Ancient Hunting and Muted/Weathered), as well as at least one for "Duncan" and perhaps others for the various septs. However, there is one that is considered reserved for the Chief, who is "styled" Struan-Robertson, or Robertson of Struan. Only the Chief and members of his immediate family are authorized to wear that particular tartan sett. While I am certain that tartan fabric manufacturers of any repute are aware of that, if I were to see someone wearing the Chief's tartan at a Highland Games or other gathering, I would carefully inquire as to that person's affiliation with the Clan before considering "going off" on him.

Aye, good point -- I know our society has a liason with our Chief, and there is always the possibility that the Chief may have presented that particular tartan to such a liason as a symbol of authority. It is the same with the heraldic flag called a pinsel. An article, "Flying Heraldry" on the Heraldry Society of Scotland's web site, has this to say about the pinsel:

small triangular flag granted by the Lord Lyon only to chiefs or very special chieftain barons for practical use to denote a person to whom the chief has delegated authority to act in his absence on a particular occasion. The flag is 4 feet 6 inches long by 2 feet high, with a background of the main livery colour of the chiefs arms. On it is depicted his crest within a strap and buckle bearing the motto and outside the strap and buckle a circlet inscribed with his title. On top of the circlet is set his coronet of rank or baronial chapeau if any. In the fly is shown the plant badge and a scroll with his slogan or motto.

-- http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/flyingherald2.html

Cheers,

Todd

[MacSimoin]

To get back to the copyright and legal issues previously discussed in this thread, I recently had a discussion with a vendor about copyright issues, here in the US and abroad. I believe millar mentioned the “Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works”, which refers to a treaty signed by numerous countries on the subject of international copyright protection issues. A [new] tartan surely falls into this ‘category’ as it is in essence an artistic work (design). For details on the treaty, please visit http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/overview.html.

As for copyright issues here in the US, I should point out copyrights and the voluntary registration of copyright is under the jurisdiction of the U.S Copyright Office; copyrighted works can be physically registered with the Library of Congress but copyright registration is voluntary and not required by law here in the States. As per the ins and outs of it all, the U.S. Copyright Office states the following:

“Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright”, and “Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is "created" when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time.”
(See: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#cr)

For those interested in designing a tartan, these pronouncements apply to your design. The STA can register your tartan (in the ITI, International Tartan Index) design based on it exclusivity (colours/counts/usage) if you choose that route. However, if you choose to use an established company that offers a design service like House of Edgar, I’d think twice about it if you wish to retain your copyrighted design. For example, House of Edgar makes this claim:

“Copyright of any tartan designed remains with us. If the customer wishes copyright to be assigned to them, a charge of £500 + VAT will apply.”

This obviously applies to a design that House of Edgar makes but if you send them a design and have them weave it for you, the copyright issue gets a bit murky. In other words, the above statement can be misconstrued or implied to mean that House of Edgar becomes the copyright owner and you forfeit all rights to your design by using their services. The international legality of this statement from House of Edgar lacks clarity so I would avoid any company who imparts such a restriction. I'm not insulting them nor do I wish to imply House of Edgar does bad business or doesn’t put out quality goods, in fact the opposite is true: My point here about this particular mill is that I highly doubt the legality or validity of their copyright restriction on previously designed tartans and I would never suggest anyone pay a mill to keep your already legally owned and copyrighted tartan design---it reeks of highway robbery.