I LOVE 'Em!! J'Dez Underkilts

[Eujeankilt]

Dave (JDEZ),

I just wanted to say that I've seen posts about your products here and at Tom's Cafe and a few have been less than kind. Your replies have been the model of even-handedness. You have never taken the slights personally and in fact, have used them to respond in an informative and educational way. I really respect the way you do business. I'm impressed by your demeanor and I applaud your efforts to end trouser tyranny!


Dale

[flyv65]

If you read most camping advice books they advise against sleeping nekie in your sleeping bag to avoid body oils, dead skin etc. Guess its similar with sitting in a kilt for long periods.

Not to hijack this thread, but check out Wiggy's bags, made in Grand Junction, CO. I've thrown my Wiggy's in the washing mashine at least three times with only good results. Wiggy used to guarantee it-might still.

Bryan...I sleep nekkie in my bag-no regrets...

[bear]

Any properly made kilt in wool or poly/viscose will not need a slip for comfort. I can't speak for heavy cotton or denim kilts.
If you need something for sanitary reasons, put on some boxer shorts and leave the slips to the chicks.
This whole thread sounds like a Tom's Cafe thread and in my opinion. The slip should have stayed there with the rest of the freestyler/crossdresser accessories.
I don't like JDEZ's marketing methods and have told him so. I don't like the way he calls all his skirts kilts and have told him so. He's never made a kilt.
This is a kilt forum (or so it says on the door) and his products have no place here.
I am not alone in my opinion. I have e-mails from others with the same opinion and I'm there's lots of Scottish guys that are way more traditional than me out there that are sickened by the things that are being called kilts.

I'm publicly asking for Hank to step in and make a decision here. Is this a kilt site or a freestyle site? I bet the answer to that will be of interest to your advertisers!

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Any properly made kilt in wool or poly/viscose will not need a slip for comfort. I can't speak for heavy cotton or denim kilts.
If you need something for sanitary reasons, put on some boxer shorts and leave the slips to the chicks.
This whole thread sounds like a Tom's Cafe thread and in my opinion. The slip should have stayed there with the rest of the freestyler/crossdresser accessories.
I don't like JDEZ's marketing methods and have told him so. I don't like the way he calls all his skirts kilts and have told him so. He's never made a kilt.
This is a kilt forum (or so it says on the door) and his products have no place here.
I am not alone in my opinion. I have e-mails from others with the same opinion and I'm there's lots of Scottish guys that are way more traditional than me out there that are sickened by the things that are being called kilts.

I'm publicly asking for Hank to step in and make a decision here. Is this a kilt site or a freestyle site? I bet the answer to that will be of interest to your advertisers!

Bear, I have to ask the question, why do you care so much what somebody decides to wear, or not wear, under their kilt. I have to agree with Mowgli that I think that JDez has been very straight forward in his replies and open to suggestions for improvement. While this might very well be just good marketing technique and somebody trying to sell a product, it is much more palatable than your blatant attack. I am not a frequenter of Tom's cafe because I feel that it caters to people that wear alternative clothing for far different reasons than my reasons for wearing a kilt. But I don't judge or bedgrudge them their reasons. Would you also ban someone because they happen to be a member of Tom's cafe, or any other site?

You are making some absolute statements

Any properly made kilt in wool or poly/viscose will not need a slip for comfort. I can't speak for heavy cotton or denim kilts. If you need something for sanitary reasons, put on some boxer shorts and leave the slips to the chicks.

How would you know? Have you worn every possible type of traditional kilt and with every possible body type that ranges from myself to Riverkilt to Iolaus to Raphael to yourself? How can you know what constitutes comfort for somebody else? You even qualify your absolute statement by restricting it to just the wool and poly/viscose variants.

Finally,

I'm publicly asking for Hank to step in and make a decision here. Is this a kilt site or a freestyle site? I bet the answer to that will be of interest to your advertisers!

Hank may step in or he may not. I don't know his mind or his goals for this forum, but your comment would have had slightly more impact in my mind you you were actually an advertiser in this site and not just another person with an opinion.

Anyway, I am off my rant. I just don't understand your overt belligerence to JDez, but I will acquiesce that you might have had other interactions that are driving your opinion.

RJI

[bear]

Bear, I have to ask the question, why do you care so much what somebody decides to wear, or not wear, under their kilt. I have to agree with Mowgli that I think that JDez has been very straight forward in his replies and open to suggestions for improvement. While this might very well be just good marketing technique and somebody trying to sell a product, it is much more palatable than your blatant attack. I am not a frequenter of Tom's cafe because I feel that it caters to people that wear alternative clothing for far different reasons than my reasons for wearing a kilt. But I don't judge or bedgrudge them their reasons. Would you also ban someone because they happen to be a member of Tom's cafe, or any other site?

You are making some absolute statements How would you know? Have you worn every possible type of traditional kilt and with every possible body type that ranges from myself to Riverkilt to Iolaus to Raphael to yourself? How can you know what constitutes comfort for somebody else? You even qualify your absolute statement by restricting it to just the wool and poly/viscose variants.

Finally,
Hank may step in or he may not. I don't know his mind or his goals for this forum, but your comment would have had slightly more impact in my mind you you were actually an advertiser in this site and not just another person with an opinion.

Anyway, I am off my rant. I just don't understand your overt belligerence to JDez, but I will acquiesce that you might have had other interactions that are driving your opinion.

RJI

From the XMarks The Scot home page:
"X Marks the Scot is a community of kilt wearers and those who encourage the wearing of kilts. Kilts are a man's garment and it is our goal to promote the wearing of the kilt in more than just the "Highland Games" situation. This is not a forum for men looking to wear womens clothing nor is it a forum for other types of men's unbifurbricated garments. If you want to know more about kilts then you have come to the right place! "

I was at Tom's Cafe when it was mostly kilts and saw the steady decline into crossdressing. Sure, it's just a slip. Who cares? Why do I care? Because a slip will turn into kilt panties, or some other silliness and we're all of a sudden talking about eyeliner and leg shaving.
Why do I care? This is the biggest strictly kilt site anywhere. I want to keep it strictly kilts. You can all think of me what you will. I've never cared much what people thought of me. But I will fight to keep this site strictly kilts. Once it changes to Tom's Cafe, I'm outta here. (And I won't be the first to go. I have WAY more patience for non-traditional stuff than a LOT of people.)
It doesn't friggin' matter if I'm an advertiser or not. My opinion is still as valid as anyone else's. Too many of you think of me as a kiltmaker first. If I was a kiltmaker first I would have kept my mouth shut like all the other kiltmakers. I wouldn't keep getting into trouble if I was a kiltmaker first. I thought about answering this thread and decided I'd rather lose a few customers and have my say than keep my mouth shut and watch the place go freestyle.

I said, "Any properly made kilt in wool or poly/viscose will not need a slip for comfort. I can't speak for heavy cotton or denim kilts. If you need something for sanitary reasons, put on some boxer shorts and leave the slips to the chicks."

Poly/viscose is non abrasive, so it needs no liner of any kind. Jimmy Carbomb has posted that a well made kilt will not itch because it will fit so well. That's how I can make an absolute statement about wool and poly/viscose kilts.

I am not overly belligerent towards JDEZ. He took a poll at Tom's asking skirt wearers if they thought it was okay to use the word 'kilt' for his skirts. Of course they said yes. He didn't poll kilt wearers. He wanted a certain response, and got what he wanted. If he wants to make and sell skirts, call them what they are. If they need to be hidden under the name of kilt to sell to men, maybe they shouldn't be made.

This foray into crossdressing will lead this site downhill.

Why do we need to have this stuff on a kilt only site?

[James]

I must admit to being amazed by the 'Bear' outburst, for it appears to contradict everything this board stands for: which as I understand it is being open minded, and respectful of the views of others. Though free to disagree in a mannered fashion.

Having got that far, the whole kilt subject is so wide in itself, and embraces so may different individuals, that there are bound to be variant views: views which should be aired, rather than silenced.

Now to try to get back on track-there are traditional kilts-utilikilts and all sorts of materials used: so to cite some sort of traditional/mandatory approach is a thing of the past.

The question rather being: will the 'underkilt' enhance kilt wearing?

Too just as the present day kilt could be seen as a development from the belted plaid-so the underkilt could be seen as a development from the long tailed shirt/tunic that to recently accompanied the kilt.

Lastly to help Bear-I have encountered traditional kilt wearers resident in Scotland, who do wear a liner/underkilt or whatever with their kilt. Just as on occasion kilted highland soldiers would wear drawers.

Whilst juast to toss in a bomb-General Sir Ian Hamilton of the Gordons was not fazed when his men were described as being petticoated [kilted].

James

[Archangel]

aahh, finally, controversy, emotion, angst....now I'm paying attention.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Archangel, I can always count on you to show up when the going gets fun! :-D

However, I need to get back to Bear, as I think I offended him and that was not my intent.

Bear, where do I start. I was not trying to provoke you, but I was trying to understand your position. I am not a Tom's cafe devotee and think that XMarks is a great forum for kilt wearers and makers. I have reviewed what gets posted to Tom's Cafe and happen to agree with you that the majority of the people on that board (not all as some of our XMarkers still watch and post on that board, as I do) are more into the cross-dressing/freestyling aspect. And I can live with that in that forum. I also don't want XMarks to become the local beauty parlor where we trade leg waxing secrets and which mousse (not moose!) is the best.

I agree also that this should be a kilts site. But that does not preclude some kind of discussion on what is under the kilt, in fact it almost requires it.

Anyway, it is getting late, and based on your last post, we are really pretty much on the same page. I truthfully don't think that the underkilt will turn into kilt panties, but if so, how are kilt panties different from men's briefs, which come in almost any fabric imaginable? I also can't imagine, though I have been wrong before, anyone on this site posting comments about eyeliner or leg shaving (not, to quote Seinfeld, that there's nothing wrong with that!).

Anyway, I apologize for making a cheap shot on whether you were an advertiser or not. Your opinion is valued, and the fact that you do make kilts does give you somewhat more exposure to the general public and their opinions than the average poster on this board.

JDez poll on Tom's I did not see, but if he were looking to sell product, I would have expected him to phrase his question that way given the focus of the Tom's Cafe board on the acceptance of cross-dressing (from my POV).
If he were to post the same question here, it would have taken a much different form. Jdez(Dave) is nothing it not a savvy marketing person.

Again, I am a purist, with the acceptance and embrace of the contemporary, in regards to kilts. The most daring I can see myself wearing is a saffron kilt from RKilts (no Robert that is not an order, send me the samples first!).

Bear, I would again like to say that I was really not attacking you personally, but trying to understand your displeasure for JDez. I think that I understand that now from your post.

Later!
RJI

[Riverkilt]

Call me stupid but hey, thought this post was on the Kilt Accessories forum...

Bear, I've never been on Tom's Cafe, but saw some of the referred post.

Me, as an old hand at cut-and-sew myself, don't see much difference between the men and women who jump in to supply the growing demand for kilts and the men and women who jump in to supply the growing demand for kilt accessories.

Here's how I see it as a consumer.

SOME of my my kilts are rough on my skin when I hike for a long ways. Even the Bodyglide wears off after a while...do I really want to have Bodyglide rubbing off on my kilts?

So I can wear an undergarment of some type for comfort and sanitation.

Until now, that had to be a bifurcated undergarment. The J'Dez folks came up with something that allows an undergarment function yet is still unbifurcated. I get the function AND the freedom.

Me, as a consumer, I like that.

I'm 61 years old and don't much care what other people choose to call the undergarment that works for me. Ironic that some call it a "slip" in the same manner as uneducated people call kilts skirts.

I am a man. Wearing an unbifurcated garment under my kilt to protect my investment makes me no less of a man, even if you chose to call it a slip.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. J'Dez is entitled to market their product. I am entitled to buy it.

I also believe that reviewing it and talking about it is appropriate under the Kilt Accessories forum. If I chose to buy one and wear it under my kilt to protect my investment then it is a kilt accessory as much as the tartan G string/jock straps that are mentioned on this forum from time to time.

Ron

[The Wizard of BC]

Well, I am an advertiser on this forum. I put my money down each month to keep this site active, topical, and informative.

I've seen pictures of Ron, and I never once thought "Oh no, Ron's cross-dressing and trying to drag me into another Tom's."

If Ron wishes to purchase an item that he believes will make his kilts feel better and stay cleaner, then I say-"Thank you Ron".

If Ron then wishes to tell his kilt wearing brothers about this product and chooses to do that here, again I say, "Thanks"

Jdez, I thank you for keeping a cool head and responding honestly and calmly. I may not buy your products, but you have my respect for what you are trying to do.

I'm not pulling my advertising dollar. I think this thread is exactly in the spirit of Hank's original intent.