The Whole Nine Yards

[freddie]

It appears extremely unlikely that "The Full Monty" has anything to do with Field Marshal Montgomery - again, if a phrase is supposed to come from the Second World War, there should be some evidence that it might have actually been used during the war, and not 20-40 years later.

Please see the following links for some discussion of "The Full Monty", a phrase which first cropped up in the mid-eighties.

http://www.word-detective.com/093098.html#monty

http://www.wordorigins.org/

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this point. I looked up the phrase 'The Full Monty' and found this reference: 'Field Marshal Montgomery, General Montgomery as he was during the Second World War, certainly had the nickname Monty (there was a film, you may recall, with the title I Was Monty’s Double, about a man who impersonated him). The stories about Montgomery mostly refer to his liking for a good breakfast, even in the desert during the North Africa campaign. It is said that the phrase was taken up after the War, presumably by ex-servicemen, as a name for the traditional English breakfast of bacon, eggs, fried bread, tomato, mushrooms, toast, and cup of tea. However, this is just as likely to be a rationalisation of an existing expression, but attached to a well-known public figure in the way such things often are. However, I have been told that it was in common use in transport cafés in the 1950s, so there may be something in it.' In the opening artillary barrage of the Battle of El Alamein 'Monty' ordered up every gun at his disposal (over 1,000!) and created a massive artillary barrage. This impressed his troops so much that they may have refered to anything that included everything available as 'The Full Monty'. This has always been my understanding of the phrase, but of course no one really knows for sure.

[macwilkin]

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this point. I looked up the phrase 'The Full Monty' and found this reference: 'Field Marshal Montgomery, General Montgomery as he was during the Second World War, certainly had the nickname Monty (there was a film, you may recall, with the title I Was Monty’s Double, about a man who impersonated him). The stories about Montgomery mostly refer to his liking for a good breakfast, even in the desert during the North Africa campaign. It is said that the phrase was taken up after the War, presumably by ex-servicemen, as a name for the traditional English breakfast of bacon, eggs, fried bread, tomato, mushrooms, toast, and cup of tea. However, this is just as likely to be a rationalisation of an existing expression, but attached to a well-known public figure in the way such things often are. However, I have been told that it was in common use in transport cafés in the 1950s, so there may be something in it.' In the opening artillary barrage of the Battle of El Alamein 'Monty' ordered up every gun at his disposal (over 1,000!) and created a massive artillary barrage. This impressed his troops so much that they may have refered to anything that included everything available as 'The Full Monty'. This has always been my understanding of the phrase, but of course no one really knows for sure.

Freddie,

Do you have a source for that -- it's a great story, and I'd love to be able to "use" that in my library tours -- I frequently talk about the origins of phrases, etc. as a way to show patrons on how to search for things -- if you could post the reference, either online or written, that would be great.

Cheers,

Todd

[wsk]

In Viet-Nam there was this stuff called 90 mile-an-hour-tape.
That is Duct Tape to you who are not old enough.

Anyway, the stuff was green, available in vast quantities and the best thing in the world to repair holes in the rotor-blades of your helicopter 'cause it was so sticky that it would stay on up to, you guessed it, 90mph.

On the boat we called that stuff EB green (for Electric Boat - builders of submarines). There is a pretty awful movie called Gray Lady Down where the captain has a line: "Thank God for General Dynamics" which we perverted to: "Thank God for General Dynamics and EB green." If memory serves, there is reference to EB green in the movie - hence the perversion - but I haven't seen it since one night on patrol lo these many years ago so I could be wrong.

So, not only will the stuff survive 90mph but if your submarine ever gets to below crush depth and water starts getting into the people tank, just a bit of EB green and you're good to go.

[haukehaien]

Originally posted by Freddie
Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this point. I looked up the phrase 'The Full Monty' and found this reference: 'Field Marshal Montgomery, General Montgomery as he was during the Second World War, certainly had the nickname Monty (there was a film, you may recall, with the title I Was Monty’s Double, about a man who impersonated him). The stories about Montgomery mostly refer to his liking for a good breakfast, even in the desert during the North Africa campaign. It is said that the phrase was taken up after the War, presumably by ex-servicemen, as a name for the traditional English breakfast of bacon, eggs, fried bread, tomato, mushrooms, toast, and cup of tea. However, this is just as likely to be a rationalisation of an existing expression, but attached to a well-known public figure in the way such things often are. However, I have been told that it was in common use in transport cafés in the 1950s, so there may be something in it.' In the opening artillary barrage of the Battle of El Alamein 'Monty' ordered up every gun at his disposal (over 1,000!) and created a massive artillary barrage. This impressed his troops so much that they may have refered to anything that included everything available as 'The Full Monty'. This has always been my understanding of the phrase, but of course no one really knows for sure.

If you have a citation with sources that place the phrase in use in the 1950s, that would make it much more likely that the phrase had something to do with the Field Marshal. However, phrases like "it is said" and "I have been told" do not inspire me to consider this more relevant than, say, the OED. (The second source I cited.) Again, the earliest written use of the phrase appears to be from the 1980s; there was a chip shop in North Manchester called "The Full Monty Chippy" in 1982, and the earliest documented usage of it as a slang term is from K. Howarth's Sounds Gradely, (1985). Even allowing for circulation of the phrase for a bit before lexicographers take note, it seems unlikely that it existed before 1978 or so. Certainly no-one knows the origin of the phrase for sure ... but if the 8th Army had taken to using the phrase, surely it would have cropped up somewhere before 30-35 years after the end of the war.