Jewish Scot's Heritage

[JS Sanders]

Well said Kilted Rogue. I have a tendancy to go along with those knowledgeable within the faith, than those without.

Slan,
steve

[Geoff Withnell]

Yes the Official part may be in Question, but
If a Rabbi has been involved with the organizing and manufacturing of a Jewish tartan, Choosing colors aligning the sett putting a years work in to the process. I take that as a bit more serious than what ppl may have or may not have been wearing due to "

Originally Posted by gilmore
A bit of both, really.
I knew a few Jewish Gordons with whom I went to school and few who just wore the Gordon tartan because it was pretty much accepted as a tartan that a lot of the local Jewish boys wore.
And I can honestly say, none of the Gordons I went to school with who were not Jewish ever has a problem with it."

I grew up in several different Jewish communities and I have never heard of a Jewish tartan or of Gordon being an accepted Jewish tartan. Maybe being raised in an orthodox Jewish synagogue tartans and men in Kilts are a bit over the bar.
Jews living in Scotland my have a different take on the issue as the are that much closer to Scotland and her heritage.

I notice on the website that they sell a number of different items in the tartan, but NOT a kilt. I am not Orthodox, but I am an observant Conservative Jew. I have worn a kilt in my synagogue, and at minyans (services) held in Orthodox homes without negative comment. I have never had opportunity to go to an Orthodox Synagogue kilted, as the ohly reason I would go there is formal occasions (weddings, bar mitzvah, etc). I would not expect a problem. The biblical injunction is against men wearing women's clothing, so a kilt is not a problem. I have seen a North African Jew in an Orthodox sysnagogue in a caftan, without trousers underneath, with no issue.

Geoff Withnell

[Nanook]

to go to an Orthodox Synagogue kilted, as the ohly reason I would go there is formal occasions (weddings, bar mitzvah, etc). I would not expect a problem.

In many communities it would not be viewed as acceptable. What is considered OK is governed wholly by local custom.

In many communities since a kilt shows a lot of leg it can be viewed as immodest attire for Synagogue.

In many communities woman will be politely told to cover themselves should they arrive in short sleeved blouses and anything but long skirts.

As long as its not considered a provocation people will nearly always remain polite but obvious discomfort will often be shown..

The biblical injunction is against men wearing women's clothing,

The rule is generally interpreted following Rashi (‏רש"י) as not about women's clothing but really about dressing up as a woman to get into closer contact with women. Its about sexual separation as a barrier to adultery.

so a kilt is not a problem.

A kilt can be a problem. What dictates what is acceptable to wear in a Synagogue is the local custom. In some Synagogues, for example, a white shirt and tie is considered a general requirement yet in many Haredi communities the tie is considered something not to wear. Some communities expect even certain kinds and colours of head coverings. As a outsider you might be tolerated as someone that does not know any better but ....

I have seen a North African Jew in an Orthodox sysnagogue in a caftan, without trousers underneath, with no issue.

A Caftan is often quite acceptable for the same reasons.

As a general rule I would suggest kilts are wholly ill-suited (outside communities where kilts are considered as part of the local custom for Synagogue attire) to Synagogue.

[The Wizard of BC]

Not to hijack the thread but to answer a question posed earlier.

The X Marks The Scot.com Tartan is not only registered with the Scottish Tartans Authority but is "Official" because it is recognized and authorized by Hank Hanna, the owner of this site.

[Kilted Rogue]

Not to hijack the thread but to answer a question posed earlier.

The X Marks The Scot.com Tartan is not only registered with the Scottish Tartans Authority but is "Official" because it is recognized and authorized by Hank Hanna, the owner of this site.

thank you Wizard

[gilmore]

...
As a general rule I would suggest kilts are wholly ill-suited (outside communities where kilts are considered as part of the local custom for Synagogue attire) to Synagogue.

But then I believe you are in the UK. Here in the US the policies on dress have become much more relaxed. Usually synagogues, as well as most other houses of worship, are more intent on encouraging attendance than ensuring that congregants are properly attired.

The last time I went to a synagogue on a Friday evening, last December, I don't believe there was a necktie to be seen among the entire congregation.

[Kilted Rogue]

But then I believe you are in the UK. Here in the US the policies on dress have become much more relaxed. Usually synagogues, as well as most other houses of worship, are more intent on encouraging attendance than ensuring that congregants are properly attired.

The last time I went to a synagogue on a Friday evening, last December, I don't believe there was a necktie to be seen among the entire congregation.

Yes but what kind of Synagogue was it, Reformed, conservative, or Orthodox? the less strict your congregation hold to the Torah ( that was not meant to anyone of any sect of Judaism to be a slight) the less the dress code will be .

the Orthodox synagogue i grew up in was always coat and tie. Even most of the kids 13 and below still had on clip on ties. they may not have stayed on the whole service but they where on non the less.

[gilmore]

Yes but what kind of Synagogue was it, Reformed, conservative, or Orthodox? the less strict your congregation hold to the Torah ( that was not meant to anyone of any sect of Judaism to be a slight) the less the dress code will be .

the Orthodox synagogue i grew up in was always coat and tie. Even most of the kids 13 and below still had on clip on ties. they may not have stayed on the whole service but they where on non the less.

Just this evening I drove past the largest Orthodox synagogue in Atlanta, and noticed quite a few people from the surrounding neighborhood walking on their way to it. Though every man I saw wore a white shirt, black pants, black hat or kippah (or both) and most wore a black suit jacket, not one wore a tie.

[Geoff Withnell]

Just this evening I drove past the largest Orthodox synagogue in Atlanta, and noticed quite a few people from the surrounding neighborhood walking on their way to it. Though every man I saw wore a white shirt, black pants, black hat or kippah (or both) and most wore a black suit jacket, not one wore a tie.

As I said earlier, there is NO central authority in Judaism. While there are Chief Rabbis in many countries, including the UK, there authority is not universally recognized. And I find it greatly amusing that many countries have TWO Chief Rabbis, including Israel! In any case, in any matter as a guest in any community, Jewish or not; when in doubt, a respectful guest will consult his host. And respect his host's wishes.

Shalom to us all and all B'nai Adom (Children of Adam)


Geoff Withnell

[Nanook]

But then I believe you are in the UK. Here in the US the policies on dress have become much more relaxed.

I don't agree. The guiding framework is always local custom. The guiding framework to violations of local custom is "does the person know any better".

10% of American Jews according to the JJPS survey see themselves as "Orthodox" . More than 500,000 of which are Haredi. There has been a strong shift in the U.S. towards more Orthodox positions over the past 20 years in response to Reform (1/3 of American Jews according to the JJPS survey) and high rates of assimilation. Reform and Conservative communities are in strong decline. The Satmars (often associated with Neturei Karta) are, for example, the fastest growing and largest (Haredi) community with over 100000 members (in the township of Kiryas Joel in NY there alone at least 15,000 Satmars). The distribution is geospatial. In Williamsburg, Boro Park and Crown Heights (Brooklyn) or Monsey (NY), for example, most Jews are Haredi. Of the 600,000 Jews in Greater Los Angeles most are Hiloni (secular) but most Synagogues are Conservative. These communities too are in slow decline and realignment with a growth in Modern Orthodox and Haredi. In places like San Francisco the growth is in liberal movements (nearly all Jews in the Bay Area can be divided into Reform and Secular with Orthodox representing well under 3% of the population).

What's fine in one community can define expulsion in another.

While many Reform communities might seem "relaxed" (part of their philosophical core), the trend among many of American's Orthodox is in the other direction. While women in pants is not accepted by Modern Orthodox as Synagogue attire its considered fine for women on the street. Many communities are less modern. Rabbi Leib Tropper of Monsey, for example, retroactively reversed a conversion and annulled a marriage of a woman who had been "seen wearing pants on the street" or gone out without head coverings.

Usually synagogues, as well as most other houses of worship, are more intent on encouraging attendance than ensuring that congregants are properly attired.

The issue is not sartorial but ethical and philosophical. A woman wearing pants, a short skirt or short sleeves to an Orthodox Synagogue will be politely told by the women "the norms".

The last time I went to a synagogue on a Friday evening, last December, I don't believe there was a necktie to be seen among the entire congregation.

The use of neckties varies from community to community. Ashkenazic Misnagdim, for example, nearly always wear ties. Most Hasidim other than Lubavitcher, by contrast, don't typically wear them. Sephardi tend to not wear neckties but some of the affluent communities have adopted more European styles of dress including suits and neckties. Among most communities there also tend to be differences in attire between Kabbalat Schabbat (Friday Evening), Shacharit (Sat. Morning) and Mincha/Ma'ariv (Afternoon/Evening) prayer.