Are you complete without a Sgian Dubh?

**Ancienne Alliance** · 29th January 09, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by scotchmaster

I don not leave home without one...

Same for me.

Best,

Robert

**Jack Daw** · 13th November 08, 04:10 PM

99% of the time I wear kilt hose with my kilt, so I can easily accommodate the sgian dhu. I don't think of it as a weapon, but as a tool, like a pocket knife. It always comes in handy at the Highland games that I attend. I'm unconfirmed on the history, other than to pass on what I've read elsewhere - that before the military standardized tucking the "black knife" in the kilt hose, it was kept under the armpit/ochter.

BTW, on Tuesday evening, I was at a fund-raiser for the Houston Highland Games Association. Those without sgian dhus had to do without an eating utensil other than a plastic spoon.

**Geoff Withnell** · 13th November 08, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Daw

99% of the time I wear kilt hose with my kilt, so I can easily accommodate the sgian dhu. I don't think of it as a weapon, but as a tool, like a pocket knife. It always comes in handy at the Highland games that I attend. I'm unconfirmed on the history, other than to pass on what I've read elsewhere - that before the military standardized tucking the "black knife" in the kilt hose, it was kept under the armpit/ochter.

BTW, on Tuesday evening, I was at a fund-raiser for the Houston Highland Games Association. Those without sgian dhus had to do without an eating utensil other than a plastic spoon.

My understanding is that the black knife was carried concealed, but it was and is rude to carry a concealed weapon in a friend's house or other peaceful circumstance, so the sgian dhu was pulled out and worn visible. So having a sgian dhu (or don't) visible is a sign of peaceful intention. Since I always carry a blade primarily as a tool, i routinely carry a sgian dhu, it's just the most convenient way to carry with no pockets. Except it goes in checked luggage when I am flying, just before I check it, and comes out right after I pick the luggage up. It's not a weapon, just when and where I grew up, only wusses didn't carry a pocket knife

Geoff Withnell

**Jack Daw** · 13th November 08, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Geoff Withnell

My understanding is that the black knife was carried concealed, but it was and is rude to carry a concealed weapon in a friend's house or other peaceful circumstance, so the sgian dhu was pulled out and worn visible. So having a sgian dhu (or don't) visible is a sign of peaceful intention. Since I always carry a blade primarily as a tool, i routinely carry a sgian dhu, it's just the most convenient way to carry with no pockets. Except it goes in checked luggage when I am flying, just before I check it, and comes out right after I pick the luggage up. It's not a weapon, just when and where I grew up, only wusses didn't carry a pocket knife

Geoff Withnell

I was born in Memphis and grew up in Texas. It was standard attire to have a pocket knife in a trouser pocket. My father and grandfather carried them always. I'd feel naked without one and am uncomfortable sometimes on a plane because of it.

BTW, I meant to write 'oxter', not 'ochter'.

**The Vicar** · 13th November 08, 07:53 PM

Thank you all for you assistance.

You folks have been very helpful.

V

**oscagne** · 14th November 08, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Geoff Withnell

My understanding is that the black knife was carried concealed, but it was and is rude to carry a concealed weapon in a friend's house or other peaceful circumstance, so the sgian dhu was pulled out and worn visible.

Geoff Withnell

This is also the story as I've heard it. I've actually heard that it used to be called the sgian achlais (armpit knife) because that was where it was concealed when in public, and only became the sgian dhu when unconcealing it when entering a friend's house.

As far as whether to wear it or not - check your local laws. Here in Texas one commits Unlawful Carry of a Weapon (PC 46.02) if one carries open or concealed an "illegal knife" in a place that is not "on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control" or "inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control". And an illegal knife is defined in PC 46.01(6) - with the relevant parts being; with a blade over 5 1/2 inches long, designed to be thrown, or a dagger, dirk, stiletto, poinard, bowie knife, sword or spear. Also, switchblade knives are Prohibited Weapons under 46.05. So, IANAL but, if you carry a sgian dhu in Texas, make sure the blade is less than 5 1/2 inches. You might also want to make sure that the blade is only single-edged so that it can't be claimed to be a dagger or dirk.

**beloitpiper** · 13th November 08, 04:49 PM

I use to wear one all the time, but now I only wear mine for formal events. For everyday wear, I just keep a pocket knife in my sporran.

**EagleJCS** · 13th November 08, 05:02 PM

As to wearing with the formal attire, IMHO it would depend on the occasion/venue. If one is attending a private party, yes do wear the sgian dubh. At a 'public' or semi-public event (think music concert or other such event, or situations where there may be a security cordon), one may, but probably should not if there may be issues.

As to the history of the sgian dubh, as with much of modern Scottish attire, there is some debate as to its origins and uses. The prevailing view is that it was a small uitility knife, often carried in one's armpit (oxter) or otherwise hidden somewhere on one's person. Hence the name "black knife" - which had less to do with the color of the hilt than that it was hidden.

One of the more 'romantic'/Victorian stories floated about these days goes that when one was visiting in a 'friendly' location, one would disarm oneself (pistols, sword(s) and dirk, etc.) at the door and put one's sgian dubh in the top of one's hose so it was visible to everyone (indicating you trusted that you would not need to defend oneself in their company). It also placed one's knife in easy reach for use at the table (the knife being the primary eating utensil besides the spoon, as the dining fork was not in fashion until the late 1600's or so).

In 'non-friendly' locales, one would be disarmed by one's host, but one would keep the sgian dubh hidden if the necessity to defend oneself arose. (Presumably, one would not be dining with such a hostile host).

**Spartan** · 13th November 08, 06:20 PM

As a clergyman I've thought about the same thing. However, I don't see the sgian dubh as weapon, anymore than a pocket knife. I will wear it with formal attire, but not with casual. I think also, as has been pointed out, you do need to consider the venue. I wouldn't wear it in a pub, or to a concert, so as not to provoke others or raise security questions. If you are uncomfortable with it in church, you can always leave it before entering the church. A nice celtic cross might be nice.

**Riverkilt** · 13th November 08, 06:33 PM

I'm with Panache on this. I think it has more to do with the situation you're attending than it does with the level of dress.

For me, wearing a sgian dubh to a high school prom would be inappropriate, even though the prom is a formal affair. Wearing it in a parade would be appropriate.

Whatever the example, the final decision depends on the occasion/venue/who's there and why than formal/informal.

For me, its expendable when need be.

Ron