A question regarding a clan badge

**Sketraw** · 9th February 09, 08:58 PM

Indeed it does say on the Lyon Court website 'Motto or Slogan' however as Sandford has pointed out, it is the chiefs crest and as he is the owner of the crest, it is he who decides if the 'war cry' in this case, or the motto should be used within the Strap & Buckle to reflect a clansman allegiance to him.

Since we are on Clansman/Clanswoman badges, a Clansman/Clanswoman is permitted to wear his Chiefs crest in a 'Strap & Buckle' (under Scots Law). Any other depiction of the badge in paper form, electronically etc. should be in Black and White Not Colour to reflect that it is the Badge of a Clansman/Clanswoman. The Chief can if he wishes use his Crest on its own in Colour.

I know many Clan Societies depict the 'Clan Crest Badge' as it is known in Colour, this is incorrect. But it will continue know doubt.

As Rathdown pointed out it is the Clan and Heraldic Bucket Shops in the main, for there own gain, that have twisted and promoted their own ideas to shake you loose of your cash.

Question to Jake; What is a Donnachidh Badge?

**pipesndrumsnun** · 10th February 09, 07:38 AM

Hey there, cousin!

Thanks for your input on my original problem...you are correct - I think it was the size that perhaps threw me off!

I think both of your badges are very nice! MacArthurs ROCK!!

**Bugbear** · 13th February 09, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

The downside, if there is one, is that at a distance of even a few feet your "light weight" USMC cap badge looks very much like the circlet used to surround the crest of an armiger.

Originally Posted by cajunscot

As a student of heraldry, Jake, I don't care for your tone here. There are a number of people, such as the Society of Scottish Armigers and others who "know and care" about heraldry.

I recognise many in this country may be unaware of the nuances of heraldry, but I see that as a chance for education, especially people attending Scottish cultural events. After all, if we Americans are going to "play Scotsmen", then we should at least be aware of and respect the traditions, such as heraldic devices.

I think Rathdown made an interesting observation that shouldn't be discounted so easily.

Todd

Well... Then... If one were going to design and have made a non-clan cap badge, what elements should be on the badge?
Better yet, which elements should one avoid incorperating into the design of the non-clan badge?

**EagleJCS** · 13th February 09, 01:03 AM

In my opinion, any kind of round pin/clasp with a one-and-a-half to two inch diameter would work for a non-clan badge.

If designing a new one, I would avoid anything resembling a feather sticking out from the perimeter. Some badges may include one to three feathers, depending upon the person's rank within the clan (one for a gentleman/armiger, two for a chief/"chieftan", and three for the clan chief). This document may be of some help in the description of a clan crest badge and how to wear it, particularly sections 5& 6 (pp 3-4): http://www.scotarmigers.net/pdfs/info-leaflet-2.pdf

I also wouldn't do a design with a plain circlet with a figure in the center without having a registered coat of arms. The figure would be the crest from the coat of arms (the part that appears on top of the helmet, above the shield). Whether you have a feather with it or not, a plain circlet badge (with a figure in the center) indicates you're an armiger (someone with a coat of arms). The strap-and-buckle style, which is most common, indicates you're a member of the clan (or the clan society). Some people might take umbrage at the audacity of wearing a circlet without having a duly granted and recorded coat of arms. Me, I don't pay much attention unless a person's trying to pass themselves off as something they obviously aren't.

Also, cap badges are traditionally in one metal (I've seen silver, pewter, brass, etc.) and not enamelled or cloisonne. That doesn't mean it can't be, just that it'll stand out and you may get grilled for it.

**Bugbear** · 13th February 09, 01:15 AM

And what exactly constitutes a circlet?

I don't see how a strap and buckle could be used in this case because there is no clan, and no chiefe.

**Jock Scot** · 13th February 09, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Ted Crocker

And what exactly constitutes a circlet?

I don't see how a strap and buckle could be used in this case because there is no clan, and no chiefe.

Good morning Ted. I know that you are planning to make and wear your own badge and I can quite see that you have no wish to "tread on any toes" by doing the wrong thing and if I may say so, quite right too. As a starter, why not get hold of an Xmarks cap badge? In my humble opinion it is a handsome piece of kit and if I had not already got a badge I would happily wear the Xmarks one. Just thinking aloud,my friend.

**Bugbear** · 13th February 09, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Good morning Ted. I know that you are planning to make and wear your own badge and I can quite see that you have no wish to "tread on any toes" by doing the wrong thing and if I may say so, quite right too. As a starter, why not get hold of an Xmarks cap badge? In my humble opinion it is a handsome piece of kit and if I had not already got a badge I would happily wear the Xmarks one. Just thinking aloud,my friend.

Thanks, Jock, I may do that. And you are very correct, I do not want to "tread on any toes" with this.

I will keep reading up on the subject.

**JSFMACLJR** · 13th February 09, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ted Crocker

And what exactly constitutes a circlet?

I don't see how a strap and buckle could be used in this case because there is no clan, and no chiefe.

Hi Ted,

A circlet is just that, a circle around the crest, as may be found in my crest badge:

Regards,
Sandford

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 13th February 09, 09:04 AM

Mornin' Ted!

Clansman's badges are jewelry in the same way that a silver circlet set with agate or caringom and worn on the bonnet is jewelry. To be sure they have a familial significance, and are governed by rules concerning pattern and shape, but they are items of jewelry none the less.

Because this is X Marks the Scot, not X Marks the Sumpthenelz, I think it is reasonable (and laudable on your part) to play by the rules. That said, strictly speaking the rules only apply to Scots and Clanfolk. Those outside the tartan tent have a bit more latitude in "bonnet jewelry".

Whimsy is something all to often overlooked, and if things are done within the "spirit" of the rules then there is no reason why a fella can't have a bit of fun.

Lots of non-Scottish, non-clan affiliated individuals and organizations use the buckle and strap devise, usually associated with the clansman's badge, and there is no reason why you could not do the same. Your friends would know what you are doing, and if you pitched up at a highland games 99% of those attending would just assume it was a "clan badge" and let it go at that-- if anyone asked, and one or two might-- you fill them in and go on your merry way.

So, for my money, there is nothing wrong, inherently evil, immoral, or evening fattening, about the individual use of the "buckle and strap". I would, however, speak out against the use of a circlet surrounding a devise as that is a heraldic item unique to an armiger.

Anyhow, what were you thinking of doing?

Cheers!
Scott

**macwilkin** · 13th February 09, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ted Crocker

Well... Then... If one were going to design and have made a non-clan cap badge, what elements should be on the badge?
Better yet, which elements should one avoid incorperating into the design of the non-clan badge?

Besides the aforementioned Xmarks cap badge, Gaelic Themes, the company that produced it, also has some "generic" cap badges, such as a St. Andrew and his cross, a Lion Rampant, a Thistle, etc. on a buckle-and-strap that could be worn in place of a clan badge.

Regards,

Todd