Coat of Arms T-shirt?

[JSFMACLJR]

This comment is pointed at no one in specific... BUT I do feel the need to air one thing.

I think it's incredibly insensitive to call out someone on something (like a coat of arms) that they have spent a LOT of time and money getting tattooed on themselves and telling them that they are wrong in having done so. Fat lot of good it does them now. Tattoos are permanent. Right or wrong, there's no sense in making someone feel bad about it. This is exactly the same thing as what we've talked about in the General kilt forum... It's not very nice to critique someone's kilt outfit, picking out things that are amiss when the person posting the pics did not ask for that...

Here, BigMikeLV did NOT ask anyone to comment on whether his family history came from a bucket shop or whether he has right to something or not. He only asked where he can find a particular crest on a T-Shirt. Nothing more.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I sometimes say that being RIGHT is overrated. What benefit is there for you if you prove someone else wrong? It makes you feel good and the other person feel like crap, and ultimately nothing good comes of it.

Yes, but BigMike didn't mention the tattoo until further into the thread. One could assume that the shield depicted as his avatar was the one in question. Clearly, by the poor quality of the emblazonment, one could tell that this shield was questionable. We were concerned about a general request for coat of arms t-shirts. As has been pointed out, ensigns armorial are personal property, and not "Family arms." We wanted BigMIke to avoid a SERIOUS mistake of using another person's personal property wrongly. I bet if he had asked our guidance on the issue before he were tattooed, he might have rethought the situation, or at least gone into it knowing all the details.

Best wishes,
Sandford

[budd4766]

I've bought many shirts from cafepress www.cafepress.com

I'd go there and search on your fam. name and coat of arms and see if somebody's already loaded that graphic up...if so, pick a size and order your shirt.

If not, you can upload you're own graphics of the coat of arms/crest and order shirts, mugs, coasters, even thongs printed with it. Most are pretty nice quality shirts...they just print whatever you upload.

[thescot]

We can certainly create a tempest in a teapot over almost any topic, can't we?

BigMikeLV, with only 12 posts as of this writing, I hope you stick around long enough to enjoy the great compassion, cameraderie, and wealth of info one can experience here along with our--and I include myself--harangues. Hahahaha. Believe me, it's just good family fun.

Since you and I do not live in Scotland--and make no mistake, the laws are different in various parts of the UK--arms are not "property" nor is it illegal to wear it. Your family love and devotion is admirable, so do as you think best. Getting a tee shirt won't be a big deal. A no one will think you are trying to pass yourself off as a noble or something. I'm not even sure whether the arms you have are registered with the Lord Lyon.

They are, however, quite striking, and the tat is very nice. I think we've all made certain that insults were not intended, so please hang with us. This is a really cool place to hang out. ith:

[macwilkin]

Since you and I do not live in Scotland--and make no mistake, the laws are different in various parts of the UK--arms are not "property" nor is it illegal to wear it. Your family love and devotion is admirable, so do as you think best. Getting a tee shirt won't be a big deal. A no one will think you are trying to pass yourself off as a noble or something. I'm not even sure whether the arms you have are registered with the Lord Lyon.

Jim,

Yes, you correct; since the United States has no governmental agency regulating ensigns armorials, then technically, it is not illegal for an American to display arms. However, I would much rather see an American citizen "assume" arms of their own design rather than "usurp" someone elses, regardless of whether they can be prosecuted by the Lyon Court or not.

An American citizen may register assume arms with an organization, such as the New England Historic & Genealogical Society's Committee on Heraldry, or a foreign government such as Spain or the Republic of South Africa. Some Americans may even receive a grant of arms from a heraldic authority such as the Lord Lyon.

Speaking for myself only, I could not, in good conscience, display or wear arms that were not my own. I respect the traditions and customs of heraldry to do otherwise. What others do is their own business of course, and they must deal with their conscience.

Regards,

Todd

[thescot]

Jim,

. . .However, I would much rather see an American citizen "assume" their own arms rather than "usurp" someone elses, regardless of whether they can be prosecuted by the Lyon Court or not.

. . .
Todd

Todd, I agree with you whole heartedly. As always, you bring thoughfulness and facts to the table. What a refreshing insertion.

One can have one's own arms in the US. You can even have one designed especially for you by the American College of Heraldry for a very resonable fee at http://www.americancollegeofheraldry.org/. And that is preferable to usurping another's. Maybe that would be frowned upon as worthless by some because it's not a government agency doing the grantling, but then again, it's a matter of taste when it comes to creating arms.

And the reason for one's own arms is to have a readily indentifiable "logo" of sorts for one's self or orgnaizatio. So why not have one's own arms created and used? If a corporation can have arms granted by the Lord Lyon, well, it's obviously only a matter of commerce there.

But then, I'm not sure that the Nolan arms shown are actually owned by an individual. For one thing, the name is Irish, so it's not subject to the Lord Lyon's purvue anyway. And few if any countries have the stringent laws regarding arms that Scotland has. Not even England is the same, as I understand it. (I am not passing myself off as anything other than a dilletante in this matter. )

If BigMikeLV got it from a "bucket shop" and he likes it and it's not really hurting anyone, then go for it. Personally, I've given thought to assuming my own arms as well, but I haven't done anything about it. I'll be the first to concede that the only thing noble about any famly blood is the character, integrity, and honesty of the bearers of the various names in my own personal family tree.

But then, a man of noble character is a man indeed. And if the ABC Corporation can have arms, why not Joe Blow?

Thanks for pointing out that arms can be had, Todd. I had forgotten that fact.

[macwilkin]

Todd, I agree with you whole heartedly. As always, you bring thoughfulness and facts to the table. What a refreshing insertion.

One can have one's own arms in the US. You can even have one designed especially for you by the American College of Heraldry for a very resonable fee at http://www.americancollegeofheraldry.org/. And that is preferable to usurping another's. Maybe that would be frowned upon as worthless by some because it's not a government agency doing the grantling, but then again, it's a matter of taste when it comes to creating arms.

And the reason for one's own arms is to have a readily indentifiable "logo" of sorts for one's self or orgnaizatio. So why not have one's own arms created and used? If a corporation can have arms granted by the Lord Lyon, well, it's obviously only a matter of commerce there.

But then, I'm not sure that the Nolan arms shown are actually owned by an individual. For one thing, the name is Irish, so it's not subject to the Lord Lyon's purvue anyway. And few if any countries have the stringent laws regarding arms that Scotland has. Not even England is the same, as I understand it. (I am not passing myself off as anything other than a dilletante in this matter. )

If BigMikeLV got it from a "bucket shop" and he likes it and it's not really hurting anyone, then go for it. Personally, I've given thought to assuming my own arms as well, but I haven't done anything about it. I'll be the first to concede that the only thing noble about any famly blood is the character, integrity, and honesty of the bearers of the various names in my own personal family tree.

But then, a man of noble character is a man indeed. And if the ABC Corporation can have arms, why not Joe Blow?

Thanks for pointing out that arms can be had, Todd. I had forgotten that fact.

Irish arms come under the jurisdiction of the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland, which follows the same customs and traditions as the Lyon Court in Scotland and the College of arms in England. Here is their web site:

http://www.nli.ie/en/intro/heraldry-introduction.aspx

I'll defer to Rathdown for a further discussion of the specifics of Irish heraldry, as that was his "bread-and butter" at one time.

The American Heraldry Society has an interesting article on their web site with a brief discussion of heraldry in America:

http://americanheraldry.org/pages/in...n=Primer.Page1

Regards,

Todd

*And Jim, thanks for raising some good discussion points!

[JSFMACLJR]

BigMike,

I made t-shirts for my sons some years ago using a nice jpeg image and making a heat transfer, which I then ironed onto the shirts. The job was very easy and the results were more than satisfactory.

Here is one of the shirts today. The shield actually looks much better than in this picture, which appears rather faded and bright:


If you can get a really good quality emblazonment (painting/drawing) of the coat of arms, you should have no problems making great t-shirts. I might want to follow the advice of thescot and cajunscot and asume arms of your own, since you are an American. You can certainly incorporate elements from the "original" grant into yours, but make it distinctly your own. Many, many resources are available to you if you want to go down this road. Heraldists love to help out!

Cheers,
Sandford

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If a corporation can have arms granted by the Lord Lyon, well, it's obviously only a matter of commerce there.

Actually, it has nothing to do with commerce (on the part of any legitimate heraldic authority) but rather with the desire of a corporation to establish an identity other than some flashy logo which, in all probability, will have a commercial shelf life of something in the region of seven to ten years.

But then, a man of noble character is a man indeed. And if the ABC Corporation can have arms, why not Joe Blow?

Indeed Mr. Blow, if he is a "virtuous and well deserving" gentleman may apply for arms, as may the corporate secretary apply for arms on behalf and with the instruction of the directors of ABC Corporation. Both are subject to a fairly rigorous scrutiny, and here is where "legally constituted heraldic authorities" part company with the private "heraldic colleges".

None of the private bodies devising arms have the resources-- or the inclination-- to establish if the petitioner for arms is "virtuous and well deserving". None of them enjoy the sovereign immunity of a real office of arms. They run the risk of being sued if they refuse to grant arms on the basis of "we don't think you are a good guy". So, at the end of the day, they are little more than graphic design studios who are at the beck and call of their client.

The client hands over the money and in return is given what, for all intents and purposes, purports to be a coat-of-arms, although it lacks any substantive standing as such in any legally constituted office of arms, anywhere in the world.

In reality these private "colleges of arms" are nothing more than uber bucket shops, following on in the tradition of carriage painters who would "emblazon" a carriage door with whatever suited the fancy of their client.

The sad thing is, for very little more effort, or outlay of funds, a person may approach any of the real offices of arms and be granted substantive arms.

[BigMikeLV]

I just wanted a T-shirt

Its all good. The design I have was handed down through the family (3 generations). However wrong it may be its still "family" to me. I wear it proud and I wear it loud. I appreciate all your information .

I am, in no means mad. I was a bit taken back, but I do realize what you are trying to say.

And to Monkey@Arms... Thanks, That's what i do! Its for me and because it came down through the family, it means a great deal to me and I'm very proud of it.

Nice ink. Wear your tat (and any T-shirt) with the pride of what it personally symbolizes for you.

And to JSFMACLJR: That's what I'll do. Thanks a alot!

[gilmore]

I think it's incredibly insensitive to call out someone on something (like a coat of arms) that they have spent a LOT of time and money getting tattooed on themselves and telling them that they are wrong in having done so. Fat lot of good it does them now. Tattoos are permanent. Right or wrong, there's no sense in making someone feel bad about it. ...Here, BigMikeLV did NOT ask anyone to comment on whether his family history came from a bucket shop or whether he has right to something or not. He only asked where he can find a particular crest on a T-Shirt. Nothing more.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I sometimes say that being RIGHT is overrated. What benefit is there for you if you prove someone else wrong? It makes you feel good and the other person feel like crap, and ultimately nothing good comes of it.

Tattooes are not permanent. Dermatologists do land office business in their removal by laser or the old fashioned way, minor surgery.

What can last longer than a tattoo is misinformation passed down through several generations, and relied upon by the unwary to their detriment.

There are some things that are matters of mere opinion and taste, and then there are some things that are not. It's better to at least be aware of the difference, and to have it pointed out in the privacy and relative anonymity of an internet bulletin board than embarassingly in public, and thus be made to look uninformed, credulous and pretentious before others in real life.

But then that is just my opinion, arrived at after decades of genealogical research, getting at the truth, and clearing away all sorts of genteel lies that were told by my forebears and those who researched them, and which has led me and many researchers to waste their time hacking away at thickets of colorful, self-important fictions.