Royal Regiment of Scotland

[M. A. C. Newsome]

People have their own perceptions and preferences, and I have no problem with that. My one and only issue here is for people to avoid such assertions as "anything with less than eight yards is not a real kilt."

I mean, even the nominal "eight yard" kilt often has less than eight yards of cloth. Let alone the historical (and modern revival of) the four yard box pleated kilt.

I'm just trying to correct a misperception about kilt yardage that is fairly common, be it in Scotland, Canada, the United States, or elsewhere.

[Jock Scot]

People have their own perceptions and preferences, and I have no problem with that. My one and only issue here is for people to avoid such assertions as "anything with less than eight yards is not a real kilt."

I mean, even the nominal "eight yard" kilt often has less than eight yards of cloth. Let alone the historical (and modern revival of) the four yard box pleated kilt.

I'm just trying to correct a misperception about kilt yardage that is fairly common, be it in Scotland, Canada, the United States, or elsewhere.

The thing is Matt and I respecfully point this out again.There are 5 million or so Scots and umpteen million other people in the world that have a perception of what a real kilt is. They have never heard of boxpleats, you, me, or Xmarks and they are never likely to.Their loss maybe, but that is the way it is.

[gasbag]

There is eight yards of wool cloth in a kilt as well as knife pleats? Well I'll be
Just a thought from a "new to kilts" type like myself, when i ordered my kilt, i had no idea there was different weights, yardages or styles of pleating.
I came here and i continue to learn. Thank you all for contributing and expanding my knowledge base.
At the end of the day, i just love the kilt for what it is to me, a link to my family history.
My two cents

[M. A. C. Newsome]

The thing is Matt and I respecfully point this out again.There are 5 million or so Scots and umpteen million other people in the world that have a perception of what a real kilt is. They have never heard of boxpleats, you, me, or Xmarks and they are never likely to.Their loss maybe, but that is the way it is.

Jock,

I think you are misreading me. I'm not disagreeing with you. I understand and agree that the vast majority of people think of the kilt as a very regulated garment that must be a certain way -- and one of those "requirements" is that it be made from eight yards of cloth.

Regardless of common opinion, however, the amount of material in a kilt is not now and has never been historically a requirement for being an authentic kilt. Is a misconception -- a popularly held one, I'll admit, but a misconception nonetheless.

It is my job (literally) to educate people about the history and traditions of the kilt, and one aspect of that is to dispell the myth that a "real" kilt must have exactly eight yards of cloth.

[Jock Scot]

Jock,

I think you are misreading me. I'm not disagreeing with you. I understand and agree that the vast majority of people think of the kilt as a very regulated garment that must be a certain way -- and one of those "requirements" is that it be made from eight yards of cloth.

Regardless of common opinion, however, the amount of material in a kilt is not now and has never been historically a requirement for being an authentic kilt. Is a misconception -- a popularly held one, I'll admit, but a misconception nonetheless.

It is my job (literally) to educate people about the history and traditions of the kilt, and one aspect of that is to dispell the myth that a "real" kilt must have exactly eight yards of cloth.

Matt ,I understand full well that you are not disagreeing with me.I feel that you are missing my point though. What I am trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to point out, is that you should not be surprised, or hurt, that the misconception continues, as most of the people who are even mildly interested in the kilt have a perception of what a real kilt is. You and others know that that perception is not necessarily correct,sadly that message is not getting through, in spite of your best endeavours. And I cannot see it ever will.

What I am saying(nicely I hope) is that you should not be surprised when a person of the majority, ill informed if you like, group has no idea what you are talking about! Of course if you,me, others who know better, xmarks, etc, could reach out and educate them, then all to the good. Sadly I don't think that will ever happen, so the 8 yard, tartan, wool, knife pleated, real kilt perception will live on. I am afraid you will still have to grind your teeth with frustration when people talk of "real" kilts for a very long time yet!

[Phil]

When I went to my tailor to have a "real" kilt made, the only choice I was offered was in the tartan to be used. Apart from that there was no question that it would be knife pleated to the sett and that was what was delivered. I fully understand that others regard a box-pleated kilt as perfectly acceptable and even a low-cost alternative. As Jock has tried to put across, somewhat unsuccessfully it seems, the only style of kilt considered as authentic by any Scotsman is a tartan, knife-pleated kilt, predominately pleated to the sett with a few pleated to the line, although these would be regarded as a military style rather than a civilian one (i.e. the wearer got a cheapie from the military surplus store!). I imagine the actual yardage would vary depending upon the size of the sett and the wearer's waist size but a good indication of a quality kilt would be the depth of the pleats - 4 inches almost or the length of your fingers. Anything less is nothing more than a tartan skirt.

[macwilkin]

Matt ,I understand full well that you are not disagreeing with me.I feel that you are missing my point though. What I am trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to point out, is that you should not be surprised, or hurt, that the misconception continues, as most of the people who are even mildly interested in the kilt have a perception of what a real kilt is. You and others know that that perception is not necessarily correct,sadly that message is not getting through, in spite of your best endeavours. And I cannot see it ever will.

What I am saying(nicely I hope) is that you should not be surprised when a person of the majority, ill informed if you like, group has no idea what you are talking about! Of course if you,me, others who know better, xmarks, etc, could reach out and educate them, then all to the good. Sadly I don't think that will ever happen, so the 8 yard, tartan, wool, knife pleated, real kilt perception will live on. I am afraid you will still have to grind your teeth with frustration when people talk of "real" kilts for a very long time yet!

Welcome to the world of a history teacher, Jock.

Of course, many of us in the field have a belief that if we can reach just one student, then we've done our jobs...I deal with myths about history on a daily basis. I may not change some of my student's minds -- all I can do is present with them the facts, and provide the most accurate and objective account of the subject at hand -- and I've done my job. What they do with them is their business, I suppose. You can lead a person to knowledge -- but you can't make them think! :mrgreen:

T.

[dfmacliam]

I, like the 4 yard box pleat, myself... Besides being an old style being brought back.... With the Texas heat.... Summer days it's quite common to see over 100 f 38 c it's a comfortable option. I know it's not for everyone...but since is has a historical past, and not a modern creation... I'll wear it.

I did take nervious jocks response to my question as tongue in cheek.. But since he did mention that they were cutting back... I figured a military box pleat used more material than a knife pleat. Am I wrong?

[Jock Scot]

1940's for me Phil! I too am very uneasy how conclusions are drawn by those that are so far removed from Scotland, it is not to say that those conclusions are necessarily wrong, but they do seem to lack,on occasion, understanding of local conditions,traditions and the way things were done and still are done, sometimes. What concerns me, is the unwillingness of some to want to understand what they are being told by those that live here. I quite accept that many here in Scotland have no idea of their past, but there are others who do have more than a fair idea of how our country has worked and how they have thought and still do think to this day.

The kilt, when all said and done, is Scottish and apart from certain adjustments for weather conditions I cannot really see why the Scots attire,its traditions and conventions should be adjusted in any way, wherever in the world the kilt is worn. If it breaks some countries laws or causes one to question how things are done in Scotland then so be it, don't wear the kilt.

There are at least two threads going on at the moment that are, frankly, totally ignoring the advice given by Scotsmen on Scottish attire and Scottish traditions, I do find it trying and yes I do find it impertinent on occasion. I do try to understand that there are those abroad that are trying to mix Scottish attire and culture with the culture of there own country and sometimes it really is obvious to me that the two really do not mix.

[Woodsheal]

I totally grasp (and respect) the views of Jock and our other Scots friends. I've experienced it firsthand! One of our kilt-night regulars is a marvelous old Scottish gentleman who emigrated to the States some 40 years ago. Victor wears his traditional kilt and accessories impeccably, and is an ongoing inspiration to us recently-kilted pikers.
The first time I wore my box-pleated kilt, he spotted the oddness right off the bat and asked about my "funny-looking" kilt. I explained about the early, historic design of it, but he just sort of rolled his eyes at my departure from orthodoxy (and perhaps sanity!). He still ribs me about my "funny looking kilt" whenever he sees me in it! He had the same reaction to a couple of guys in "great-kilts" when they made an appearance at our kilt night....