what shirt?

**MacLowlife** · 22nd February 10, 02:25 PM

If I can possibly get away with it, I like to wear a small checked shirt with my kilt. In the US, this usually means a button down collar. I draw the line between "dressy " suits and button down collar shirts- they really ought to have a spread collar, especially DB ones. I think a BD is fine for a navy blazer or a tweed jacket. If it is a British ( hacking cut) jacket, I will try for a spread collar, even with a checked shirt. You have to get these shirts from England usually, or from someone who sells the English look... I think bow ties work well with BD collar shirts.

As for the up-or-down collar for black tie, I believe the fashion has gone back and forth. Someone pointed out that tuxedo jackets were originally shortened from tailcoats and thus you wore a wing collar. Through the mid 20th century, the folded down collar ruled. My own worst nightmare is the cheesy wing collar that is often perpetrated- little more than a band with two diminutive points.

As I remember it, the folded down tuxedo collar began slipping in popularity about the time THE STING came out, which showed the 1930s wing collars. Some people link the lapel style to the collar style- shawl lies down, peak gets the wing. Notch lapel is just a bad idea for a tux, sorry. And yes, I read that Prince Philip has one. Too bad for him.

**chasem** · 22nd February 10, 02:52 PM

could someone post images of these different types of collars? I'm not certain I'm following properly. Button-down collar is easy, but on wing, spread-collar, etc... I'm lost.

**Zardoz** · 22nd February 10, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by chasem

could someone post images of these different types of collars? I'm not certain I'm following properly. Button-down collar is easy, but on wing, spread-collar, etc... I'm lost.

Here's some pretty good info;

http://www.execshirts.com/dress-shirt-collars.htm

**chasem** · 22nd February 10, 05:39 PM

Very nice, thank you.

**Brian K** · 22nd February 10, 09:08 PM

I have always read that a button down collar shirt should only be worn with a tie if you are not wearing a jacket at all or if you are wearing a sport coat or blazer. If you are wearing a suit (trousers and jacket of the same material in the same color) then one of the many versions of a pointed or spread collar are called for. It would seem then that when kilted the prudent thing to do would be to consider whether you are wearing the kilted equivalent of a suit you should not wear a shirt with a button down collar. I personally have never cared for the spread collar because I don't think it looks good on me and I am not particularly fond of the Windsor or half-Windsor knot. A good old fashioned four-in-hand with a proper dimple works best as far as I am concerned.

As regards the wing collar things are a bit complicated. Longhuntr74 has the Dress regulations of the United States Army to contend with, and I respect that. The rest of us have a bit more freedom. There was a time when the high collar, including the wing style, was worn for everyday dress. bow ties, cravats and four-in-hand ties were all acceptable with these collars (you still see formal morning wear with a wing collar worn with a cravat or four-in-hand). Formal wear was the close fitting tailcoat with a white pique shirt and bow tie and a white brocade or pique waistcoat.

There are various stories of the origin of the tuxedo but the one I've heard most often goes something like this: During pre-dinner or pre-ball activities many men would not wear their tailcoats, but would wear a short dressing gown or a smoking jacket so they would not spoil their finery with pipe or cigar ash or anything else. When the time arrived for formal dress it was necessary only to change your jacket. In Tuxedo Park, NY one night a wealthy young gentleman decided he would simply wear his smoking jacket and the tuxedo was born. At that time he would have worn it with the same white shirt, tie and waistcoat that went with the tailcoat but eventually the black tie and other changes occurred. At some point in the 30s or thereabouts the pointed collar began to gain sway and remained the norm until the return of the wing collar in the 70s. Of course, you rarely see the splendid high celluloid, or highly starched linen collar today but you can always hope for their return. 50 years ago the accepted collar with a tux, or anything else similarly formal, was the pointed collar - in fact I've even seen white tie with (the horror!!) a pointed collar - but at one time it was revolutionary.

The upshot of it all? Wear whatever makes you happy and comfortable (unless you're in the Armed Forces). If you're unhappy or uncomfortable you won't have a good time and you'll make everyone around you uncomfortable.

**kid icarus** · 22nd February 10, 10:14 PM

If you're unhappy or uncomfortable you won't have a good time and you'll make everyone around you uncomfortable.

heck, i make people around me uncomfortable all the time!

but thanks this is actually some very good advice, and something i hadn't thought of until you said it.

some very good thoughts on shirt collars here. i appreciate it everyone. i'm sure i will ask loads of more asinine questions in the near future. thanks!

**Zardoz** · 22nd February 10, 11:39 PM

Well as I often say, I'm no fashion expert, but in my pre-kilt days I was a pretty traditional dresser when it came to suits or formal wear. I was always told by my elders that the rule of thumb was that button-down collar shirts, keeping with their sporting origin, go with sport-coats or blazers, worn without a tie.
A traditional suit and tie should be worn with anything but a button-down.
I will say that I often see people wearing button-downs with suits here in Texas, and in the South in general I guess , but I don't care for it.

**Jack Daw** · 23rd February 10, 06:24 AM

I agree with you, Z and I still wear the pointed collar with shirts, but the collar stays are so-o-o-o annoying!

**Brian K** · 23rd February 10, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Jack Daw

I agree with you, Z and I still wear the pointed collar with shirts, but the collar stays are so-o-o-o annoying!

Well, if you buy good shirts with removable stays (if you lose them they're easily replaceable), and own an iron and spray starch, you can leave the stays out and go with what is sometimes referred to as a "soft collared" look. Most people will never even notice you don't have the stays in and it will be more comfortable.

**Jack Daw** · 23rd February 10, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Brian K

Well, if you buy good shirts with removable stays (if you lose them they're easily replaceable), and own an iron and spray starch, you can leave the stays out and go with what is sometimes referred to as a "soft collared" look. Most people will never even notice you don't have the stays in and it will be more comfortable.

My shirts are starched, but the collars curl without stays as the shirt ages. I've got a nice supply of stays, but they are still annoying to fool with.