US Army Tartan

[macwilkin]

Well, there is a West Point pipeband and...

But they were the USMA tartan, and not the US Army tartan. The USMA tartan has been around since the 1970s, if memory serves me correctly.

I think either Orvis or LL Bean sells a shirt in the 7th Cavalry tartan.

Its a busy tartan - would be "suicide" to wear here in Indian Country...

Since the 7th never served against the Navajo, I wouldn't see why not. We tend to forget that just as many Indians served as allies with the US Army in the Indian Wars as opponents -- the Pawnee, for example, raised two regiments to serve against the Sioux, and of course, the famous Apache Scouts of General Crook, not to mention all of the Indians who have served in the US Armed Forces to the present day...

Matt...I believe there is some "official" recognition by the US Navy for the Navy (Edsel?) tartan. Don't believe there is any Army recognition though. The Marines have also been trending towards more and more kiltwearers and pipers at "official" functions from what I've read and heard. Maybe they'll see Leatherneck get officially adopted?

The Pipes & Drums of the US Naval Academy wear the Polaris tartan, which I suppose gives it de facto recognition, but I've never heard of the Edzell tartan being recognized.

T.

[Riverkilt]

Well, of course there was some tounge in cheek Todd. I have managed to march in our local 4th of July parade in full Civil War era cavalary replica turn out without being assaulted.

For whatever reason, movies - travel to Montana, the Dakotas, Nebraska for work - The Native American Church, The American Indian Movement, I can assure you that Lakota and Cheyenne spiritual ways and pracitices are VERY strong on the Navajo Nation.

One of the largest Sun Dances (complete with piercing) takes place every 4th of July at Big Mountain up on Black Mesa, deep on the reservation. Believers come from around the World to participate and support.

I have a Navajo friend who fell in with Lakota ways while working in Wyoming. He has pierced every year at the Sun Dance at Big Mountain for many many years. A deeply spiritual man. He blends his Traditional Navajo spirituality with Lakota spirituality and a dash of Viet Nam USMC combat veteran gratitude.

I would guess that Navajo people around here know who George Armstrong Custer was better than Lakota people know Kit Carson and the Long Walk.

And yes, I'll guess there are Navajo men on the reservation who have served in the modern 7th Cavalry...

The Navajo Nation is a hot bed of political and spiritual beliefs - many intensely held. If I were to wear a 7th Cavalry tartan it would not surprise me to one day have a Native walk up to me an confront me for it. But as I have no ties to the 7th, it ain't gonna happen.

AIM, the American Indian Movement, has united members of many tribes that once didn't much care for each other.

As much as I know and support Native peoples around here I'm still a Billagaana, Bahana, Wasichu....seems appropriate to show respect by not doning the turnouts of their old enemys.

Civil War era cavalry was too close for me and I haven't worn that for the 4th of July parade or the Veteran's Day parade since.

[Highland Logan]

I think he was referring to the legacy of the Armed Forces that the tartans represent...not so much the legacy of the tartan itself. When you get right down to it, isn't that the deal with all tartan? Is there something special about the Black Watch tartan that makes it proud and honorable? Not in my opinion...it is just a symbol...like a flag, unit colors, etc. It is the men who wore it that have made the legacy and who we honor by wearing it...not the person that invented the pattern.

First.. no real offence intended, but I was asking Ron. And since you bring it up, Black Watch was worn by many regt over the years on and off the field, and is reconized as their tartan. So there is a bit of differance between a tartan created by someone to make money with no official reconiztion by the group it was created for and one used officially.

And Ron, no need to spin. I did not challange you pride in the armed forces of your country, I asked about your description of a non-reconized fashion tartan as being "proud and honorable". So please drop the flag and answer a politly asked direct question.

Frank

[longhuntr74]

First.. no real offence intended, but I was asking Ron. And since you bring it up, Black Watch was worn by many regt over the years on and off the field, and is reconized as their tartan. So there is a bit of differance between a tartan created by someone to make money with no official reconiztion by the group it was created for and one used officially.

And Ron, no need to spin. I did not challange you pride in the armed forces of your country, I asked about your description of a non-reconized fashion tartan as being "proud and honorable". So please drop the flag and answer a politly asked direct question.

Frank

Nevermind....I wrote a long reply...but it's not worth arguing about...

[Riverkilt]

And I wonder what the "need" to question is all about?

From what I know of Alexis and Strathmore I would doubt that money was at the root of their efforts. For sure the vendor(s) who knock off their registered tartan design have money at the root of their efforts.

I believe I have answered the question directly. I believe your original questioning was made from behind your own flag. It is so tempting to ask where your service group would be today were it not for the assistance of the U.S. Army......

[Highland Logan]

And I wonder what the "need" to question is all about?

From what I know of Alexis and Strathmore I would doubt that money was at the root of their efforts. For sure the vendor(s) who knock off their registered tartan design have money at the root of their efforts.

I believe I have answered the question directly. I believe your original questioning was made from behind your own flag. It is so tempting to ask where your service group would be today were it not for the assistance of the U.S. Army......

Ron, I don't beleive you have answered it, you manipulated yourself around it trying to create a position which could not be questioned or challanged.

Unlike your response I was not sniping from behind a flag. And as to where my army would be... that's an overly self-importaint point of view, that is straying into the political relm.

Frank

[dfmacliam]

Its a fashion tartan to you.... to those of us who served in the Marines, it has a completely different meaning.. official or not.. it represents our service... the Marines may not have officially adopted the tartan, but it is widely accepted Marine Corps wide, as the tartan representation of our service.

Every year, on the Marine Corps Birthday, balls are held in all parts of the world, and it would be a common sight to see kilted Marines wearing the Leatherneck tartan.. it has our name on it.. and it is cherished, by all who served.. it represents everything important to us... to the men and women we lost in times of war and conflicts, to those who proudly the Marine Corps, throughout history.

So, you are right... to you..it is just a fashion tartan... to me... it is a lot more... and unless you earned the title of Marine, I am afraid, you will never understand.

[Riverkilt]

Okay, then try this direct answer.

I do not believe that a tartan has to be first created, then dipped in blood to be "proud and honorable."

I do believe that a tartan can be created to honor a proud and honorable history - Being created to honor a proud an honorable history is what makes the tartan proud and honorable.

The way you asked your question makes It very difficult not to infer degradation and malice toward honorable men and women who saved the bacon of folks who twice fought their ancestors - yet they still responded to the call to defend the homeland of their former enemies. I would call that proud an honorable and deserving of a proud an honorable tartan after the fact.

It is the very audacity to question a proud and honorable history that has my hackles up since so many of my family members answered the call without hesitation. You asked for help, we came, now you question the honor of the tartan that represents our service?

Each tartan represents what it represents - there's no need to compare one to the other - each speaks for its own history - or the history it was created to represent.

You tossed out the challenge...I've answered as best I could and with honest emotion. I care not how you judge my response. I am left to wonder why the challenge in the first place and why the ingratitude towards men and women who gave the ultimate sacrifice to defend your homeland - assuming you are English from past mention of your service to the Crown.

[Highland Logan]

Okay, then try this direct answer.

I do not believe that a tartan has to be first created, then dipped in blood to be "proud and honorable."

I do believe that a tartan can be created to honor a proud and honorable history - Being created to honor a proud an honorable history is what makes the tartan proud and honorable.

The way you asked your question makes It very difficult not to infer degradation and malice toward honorable men and women who saved the bacon of folks who twice fought their ancestors - yet they still responded to the call to defend the homeland of their former enemies. I would call that proud an honorable and deserving of a proud an honorable tartan after the fact.

It is the very audacity to question a proud and honorable history that has my hackles up since so many of my family members answered the call without hesitation. You asked for help, we came, now you question the honor of the tartan that represents our service?

Each tartan represents what it represents - there's no need to compare one to the other - each speaks for its own history - or the history it was created to represent.

You tossed out the challenge...I've answered as best I could and with honest emotion. I care not how you judge my response. I am left to wonder why the challenge in the first place and why the ingratitude towards men and women who gave the ultimate sacrifice to defend your homeland - assuming you are English from past mention of your service to the Crown.

Canadian not English, so we never called for your help, but have answered yours.. Afghanistan. My question was from the start about you discription of a tartan plain and simple. I never said anything which could have been misconstrued any other way.

And peacekeeper83, thank you for your discription. You are right I don't get it, and it has nothing to do with not being a Marine. Our military has symbols, but they come from within, not from outsiders.

Frank

[Riverkilt]

Perhaps if you'd visited Alexis Malcolm's website you'd clearly see she is not an outsider.

"Remember these faces. These are a sampling of the lads that went to Vietnam. Many didn’t want to go, but it was their duty. They went for their Country but they fought for each other. They fought to stay alive & come home to families & friends who loved them. They laughed, they joked, they had their private fears & dreams of their future. 58,000 did not return. They were your brothers, your sons, your friends & your fathers. These above were Marines, but the Army, Navy, Airforce & Coast Guard sent their best as well. To be truly good patriots, we must all never forget the price of war nor engage in it for foolish purposes & never forget our Lads & Lassies who served, no matter their age, whether they come home or not...They paid the price & we owe them a heartfelt gratitude. Above all else though, we owe them sound judgement.

Semperi Fi ! Alexis Malcolm, proud daughter of a US Navy Doctor who went with "his" Marines to Bouganville & Guadalcanal, Navy wife, Navy Submariner's sister & Mom of a US Marine."

http://www.alexismalcolmkilts.com/1089/1098.html Go to this webpage, perhaps you will understand where Alexis' heart was in creating the Army tartan.

What I do not understand is how you sir, can insult another man's tartan, then expect the other man to agree with your insult and expect him to justify why you do not have the right to insult his tartan.

Insulting another man's tartan as not "proud and honorable" is self-evident disrespect, as is assuming an aloof position and demanding the pride and honor of another man's tartan be justified.

I still fail to see why you have such an interest in demanding the pride an honor of the U.S. Army tartan be proven to your satisfaction.

The insult originated from you sir. The pride and honor of the U.S. Army tartan is self-evident.

And, I can only speculate that IF England had fallen the next invasion would have been of Newfoundland and my guess is that the men and women of the U.S. Army would have gladly defended Canadian soil. Certainly, my ancestors would have since we are also of Canadian ancestry.

As for Afganistan, there were Canadians that died on 9-11 too.