Stripe/Sett

[ForresterModern]

Stripes present, and their complexity and proximity to other stripes can be a problem with certain setts. For example, when Bonnie was offering me options for my Allen kilt she showed me a variety of stripe pleating options, but kept running into problems becasue two different colored stripes were close enough together to show up in the pleat, but not close enough such that when the fell was tapered that portions of one or both of them disappeared with the taper higher up on the fell, giving a less than pleasing effect. We could have pleated to no stripe (or the really big blue area in the center of the sett) but then that would have given the horizontal stirped "lawnchair" look that was not pleasing to my eye, and entirely defeated the idea pleating to a vertical stripe of prominence to beging with. The dominant red and white stripes in my Allen are only about 1 inch apart, and that was enough to cause problems with the taper. Pleating to one made the other disappear part way up the fell, in a rather obvious fashion.

jeff

[Bugbear]

For what it's worth, I would prefer my tartan, if I were having a kilt made in it, to be pleated to the sett. I don't see why I should care how anyone else decides to have their kilts pleated.

And yes, I prefer to be boring!

[Bugbear]

Brian, in rereading the rest of your posts in this thread, I get the sense you are primarily looking at this from an aesthetic prospective. I can understand where you are coming from.

However, JSFMACLJR, Jock and I are also looking at this from a tartan, and the meaning of tartan prospective. The sett of the tartan, in their case being clan, and in my case having symbolic meaning, is more important, in our minds, than the aesthetics of a "busy butt" pleating arrangement. *At least that's how I interpret what's being discussed.*

It looks unnatural to JSFMACLJR's eyes because he would be trying to convey a traditionalist manner of kilt wearing which probably puts all the flashyness in the sporran and cut steel buttons.

I, of course, don't have to look at anyone's pleats, and prefer to be bland, so...

[Brian K]

Brian, in rereading the rest of your posts in this thread, I get the sense you are primarily looking at this from an aesthetic prospective. I can understand where you are coming from.

However, JSFMACLJR, Jock and I are also looking at this from a tartan, and the meaning of tartan prospective. The sett of the tartan, in their case being clan, and in my case having symbolic meaning, is more important, in our minds, than the aesthetics of a "busy butt" pleating arrangement. *At least that's how I interpret what's being discussed.*

It looks unnatural to JSFMACLJR's eyes because he would be trying to convey a traditionalist manner of kilt wearing which probably puts all the flashyness in the sporran and cut steel buttons.

I, of course, don't have to look at anyone's pleats, and prefer to be bland, so...

Of course I'm thinking of aesthetics. Every time we choose an article of clothing we are making aesthetic choices. A large number of the threads in the Kilt Advice forum - the home of this thread - relate to aesthetics: "what looks best with..." "How does this look..." "would you wear x with y, or would z be better?"

If aesthetics were not important there'd be much less variety in highland dress than there is. Velvet doublets, diced or argyle hose, silver buttons, long hair sporrans and many other items that we take for granted might simply not exist.

Jock may think that pleating to the sett is traditional for civilian wear, and, if he does, I certainly respect the opinion of my generous benefactor, but what he said was that to his eyes pleating to the stripe "looks far too busy." That is a statement about aesthetics, not tradition.

Sandy said that he thinks pleating to the stripe looks unnatural and that, too, seems like an aesthetic choice on his part. Again, I respect his opinion, even if I don't take it as my own.

I happen to think that the apron of the kilt is where the tartan is shown to its best effect. it's a (relatively) flat and continuous surface that keeps all the elements - the stripes - of the sett in proper place and proportion. The slightest movement of the pleats or the slightest error in sewing and creasing the pleats can distort the pattern and ruin the beauty of the sett. When I design a tartan I fuss over it to make sure everything is the way I'd like it to be. Am I always happy with it? No, but the ones I am happy with should be used in a way that displays them the best and I'm not convinced pleating to the sett does that. Freelancer's image of a tattered curtain springs to mind.

As far as tradition is concerned, I agree that it is important to pay attention to tradition, but we also have to decide where it starts and ends, and we do not have to be slaves to it. According to our resident tartan scholar, pleating to the sett was still relatively new and noteworthy as recently as the early 20th century. That is quite recent in the history of clothing and if that is your standard it invalidates the traditions of the century or more prior to that in the era of modern Highland dress.

Again, this is simply my opinion and I think you ought to pleat your kilt in the manner which makes you most happy. If that is to the sett then I'll not stand in your way. In fact I'll encourage you in doing it that way if it make you enjoy your kilt all the more.

Regards,

Brian

[Bugbear]

Of course I'm thinking of aesthetics. Every time we choose an article of clothing we are making aesthetic choices. A large number of the threads in the Kilt Advice forum - the home of this thread - relate to aesthetics: "what looks best with..." "How does this look..." "would you wear x with y, or would z be better?"

If aesthetics were not important there'd be much less variety in highland dress than there is. Velvet doublets, diced or argyle hose, silver buttons, long hair sporrans and many other items that we take for granted might simply not exist.

Jock may think that pleating to the sett is traditional for civilian wear, and, if he does, I certainly respect the opinion of my generous benefactor, but what he said was that to his eyes pleating to the stripe "looks far too busy." That is a statement about aesthetics, not tradition.

Sandy said that he thinks pleating to the stripe looks unnatural and that, too, seems like an aesthetic choice on his part. Again, I respect his opinion, even if I don't take it as my own.

I happen to think that the apron of the kilt is where the tartan is shown to its best effect. it's a (relatively) flat and continuous surface that keeps all the elements - the stripes - of the sett in proper place and proportion. The slightest movement of the pleats or the slightest error in sewing and creasing the pleats can distort the pattern and ruin the beauty of the sett. When I design a tartan I fuss over it to make sure everything is the way I'd like it to be. Am I always happy with it? No, but the ones I am happy with should be used in a way that displays them the best and I'm not convinced pleating to the sett does that. Freelancer's image of a tattered curtain springs to mind.

As far as tradition is concerned, I agree that it is important to pay attention to tradition, but we also have to decide where it starts and ends, and we do not have to be slaves to it. According to our resident tartan scholar, pleating to the sett was still relatively new and noteworthy as recently as the early 20th century. That is quite recent in the history of clothing and if that is your standard it invalidates the traditions of the century or more prior to that in the era of modern Highland dress.

Again, this is simply my opinion and I think you ought to pleat your kilt in the manner which makes you most happy. If that is to the sett then I'll not stand in your way. In fact I'll encourage you in doing it that way if it make you enjoy your kilt all the more.

Regards,

Brian

Fair enough, Brian; though I said it was more than aesthetics, rather than a lack of aesthetics. I do not speak for Jock and Sandy, and can not bridge that gap.

I'm out.

[Brian K]

Fair enough, Brian; though I said it was more than aesthetics, rather than a lack of aesthetics. I do not speak for Jock and Sandy, and can not bridge that gap.

I'm out.

Awww...Ted, don't be "out." I like your input. I just wish you'd be a bit more assertive. At least you're not hiding under the chair now

Sorry if it appeared that I misread your post, but I thought the aesthetic question should be dealt with first as you mentioned it first. I was just emphasizing how important aesthetics were to me.

I do think I dealt with the ideas of tradition and the importance of tartan in and of itself. I just happen to think that pleating to the sett is not necessarily the most traditional arrangement nor do I think it always serves the interest of the tartan better than pleating to the stripe because no matter how hard you try you are not guaranteed of getting a perfect representation of the sett in the pleats especially when you're moving, which most of us do a lot. Your mileage may vary and that is fine by me. If we all agreed about everything it'd be a dull world indeed.

Regards,

Brian

[Bugbear]

Awww...Ted, don't be "out." I like your input. I just wish you'd be a bit more assertive. At least you're not hiding under the chair now

Sorry if it appeared that I misread your post, but I thought the aesthetic question should be dealt with first as you mentioned it first. I was just emphasizing how important aesthetics were to me.

I do think I dealt with the ideas of tradition and the importance of tartan in and of itself. I just happen to think that pleating to the sett is not necessarily the most traditional arrangement nor do I think it always serves the interest of the tartan better than pleating to the stripe because no matter how hard you try you are not guaranteed of getting a perfect representation of the sett in the pleats especially when you're moving, which most of us do a lot. Your mileage may vary and that is fine by me. If we all agreed about everything it'd be a dull world indeed.

Regards,

Brian

I was attempting to give you an idea of where Jock and Sandy might be coming from. You say you have designed many tartans. For either of them, and of this I am sure, there is only a single tartan. It may be that the sett is what they are comfortable and used to seeing.

I have been assertive in very carefully reading many, many of Jock, Sandy, MOR, et all's posts, as well as, asking hundreds of questions of them over the last couple of years. Learning from them, they don't agree on everything, has required me to make quite a few mistakes and even finding myself in the middle of their minor disagreements. I was usually corrected by Matt Newsome.

I have since put a hold on wearing Highland attire, so I don't want to get too entangled in these discussions. Somehow I still do...

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from in this.

[Freelancer]

I definitely prefer pleating to the stripe. To my eye, it looks smart and orderly. Pleating to the sett tends to give me a sort of tattered curtain effect, where the pleats open and the sett becomes jumbled.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I generally prefer pleating to the stripe for a number of reasons.

One is that it is an older form of pleating, and I always like to give a nod to historic precedent in my kilt wearing. Pleating to the stripe can be documented in military kilts back to the 1790s and was the norm in civilian kilts as well by 1820. Whereas pleating to the sett was still a relatively new and noteworthy thing as late as the early 20th century.

Pleating to the sett is by and far the "norm" for civilian kilts these days, and that's another reason I like pleating to the stripe. I like to be a bit different from the norm when possible. :-) If for no other reason than to show people it can legitimately be done different ways. (I have encountered people who are of the opinion that only military kilts can be pleated to the stripe).

But the main reason I prefer pleating to the stripe is that I, personally, find it visually more appealing. Your opinion may vary. But it's your kilt and so you should feel free to get it pleated how you want it to be (within the limits of what is possible, of course, with your given tartan).

[Jock Scot]

Brian K.

You are quite correct. How the tartan in the kilt is pleated has, as far as I am concerned, nothing to do with tradition. I just happen to think tartans pleated to the stripe look far too busy, to my eyes they look more like a string bead curtain and unnecessarily brash for civilian wear. Others are quite at liberty to think otherwise and no doubt the world will carry on spinning whatever we choose.

I have a feeling that you are correct with the suggestion that pleating to the stripe does seem to be more popular on your side of the Atlantic.