The Varieties of Traditional Experience: To Jabot or not To Jabot

[piperdbh]

I see a few unanswered questions still floating around.

What color is the waistcoat worn with the jabot for white tie?

Usually black, but it can be tartan or something else.

[MacLowlife]

Doing a little more research, I see that some people suggest the names ascot and cravat are interchangeable. Just to be certain, the device to which I refer is the scarf that goes inside an open-necked shirt, in the manner of Thurston Howell, III and Robert DuVall in APOCALYPSE NOW. I believe its general connotation is of at-home elegance and/or casual distinction. You will see on other forum postings that it is to the bow tie as the bow tie is to the four-in-hand- a little riskier, a little rarer. But, like a dinner jacket, unless modified somehow it might be a bit of a mixed metaphor to throw it in with a kilt.

I do not wish to sound political or to alarm the mods, but it may be too English to be considered for traditional highland wear.

I look forward to either contradiction or confirmation.

[CMcG]

Doing a little more research, I see that some people suggest the names ascot and cravat are interchangeable. <snip>

I'm still a little confused with this one. I thought all Ascots were cravats but not all cravats were Ascots? Specifically, it seems the Ascot has wide, diamond shaped points and a narrow band.:


According to the link from JerseyLawyer, a Highland cravat is more similar to a riding stock. I think that means it is longer so that it can doubled around the neck before the knot is tied and pinned down?


I'm still not sure if either of these is an acceptable replacement for a jabot in either white or black tie, but hopefully someone more knowledgable will clarify...

[JSFMACLJR]

I'm still not sure if either of these is an acceptable replacement for a jabot in either white or black tie, but hopefully someone more knowledgable will clarify...

Yes, a stock ( and by extension a "Highland Cravat" ) is an acceptable replacement for a lace jabot. It says as much in the 1937 Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court.

[Bugbear]

Doing a little more research, I see that some people suggest the names ascot and cravat are interchangeable. Just to be certain, the device to which I refer is the scarf that goes inside an open-necked shirt, in the manner of Thurston Howell, III and Robert DuVall in APOCALYPSE NOW. I believe its general connotation is of at-home elegance and/or casual distinction. You will see on other forum postings that it is to the bow tie as the bow tie is to the four-in-hand- a little riskier, a little rarer. But, like a dinner jacket, unless modified somehow it might be a bit of a mixed metaphor to throw it in with a kilt.

I do not wish to sound political or to alarm the mods, but it may be too English to be considered for traditional highland wear.

I look forward to either contradiction or confirmation.

No, MacLowlife, you should not wear that ascot. A bolt of Scottish lightning would most likely vaporize you and a gust of wind would blow your ashes and smoke on the host and other guests. It would be rude to put them in that situation.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The frontice piece of Loudon Macqueen Douglas's book THE KILT published in 1914 shows the author wearing a lace jabot, wing collar, and french cuff shirt. Elsewhere (opposite pg. 33) is a photograph of David Hepburn with lace at the cuff, and a lace jabot tied like a stock, again with a wing collar. From these and other early 20th century photographs, it would seem that it is perfectly acceptable for a jabot or stock to be worn with a collar.

[Bugbear]

What about the jabot with the fold down collar of a dress shirt, like a shirt that would be worn with a tuxedo?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

What about the jabot with the fold down collar of a dress shirt, like a shirt that would be worn with a tuxedo?

There is no reason that a jabot couldn't be worn in this manner. Since the jabot and a five button waistcoat would effectively cover the entire front of the shirt, there would be no need to go to the expense of a tuxedo shirt-- an ordinary white shirt would suffice as well. If lace cuffs, as opposed to french cuffs, were desired, it would be a simple matter to velcro the lace to the inside of the jacket cuff. In that instance one would probably be advised to purchase a shirt with the button cuff and the sleeves one-inch shorter than usual (ie: 32 inch sleeve as opposed to a 33 inch sleeve).

There is an excellent picture of the late, lamented, Panache wearing his Sheriffmuir with the lace cuffs attached to the jacket sleeves somewhere here on the forum--

[Bing]

...the late, lamented, Panache ...

You mean that metaphorically of course. I saw him logged in elsewhere on teh webz at

November 20, 2010, 04:19:49 PM

, although I have not yet discounted the possibility that he is either a kilted poltergeist or zombie.

[Bugbear]

well, since you brought it up, Bing... Yes, I do believe that we can exchange pieces of our personalities with other people as we interact. The other side of this concept being, as our personalities develop over our lifetime, parts (not all) of who we sense ourselves to be, are coming from our family, community and culture. So, yes, Panache, though live and well, has been partly copied into us, and also into our extrasomatic memory stored here as the forum archive. We each have a small piece of the Panache.

The jabot was developed over generations as an item of tradition, and could be considered to record a piece of Scottish culture. By choosing to wear the jabot, one could be incorporating part of that culture into one's own self-image. A particular jabot, say a bespoke jabot of one's great-grandfather, could possibly be recording a small piece of his personality. It has "character," as we say; that would be the great-grandfather's character as he incorporated the particular jabot into his self-image. The great-grandson is now incorporating the jabot into his own self-image. The jabot has appealed to both individuals across generations and could be handed down to other generations; the same goes for kilts or jackets, hose, sporrans, and other items of Highland attire, or even concepts of Highland attire. So, we not only receive parts of who we are from our community and culture, we may be storing parts of ourselves in the community and culture as we interact with people over time...

I'll shut up now.