UK Honours List - a bit OT

[piperdbh]

Post-nominals, such as OBE, MBE, GCMG, etc. are not used as part of the signature.

The usual form would be:

(signed) Peter Peel

(printed on a card or letter paper) Peter Peel, OBE
(if in the armed forces then) General Sir Peter Peel, GCHG
(if the son of a Peer then) Hon. Peter Peel, CBE

Ah-ha. I knew you'd have the answer.

[Jock Scot]

M o R is spot on.These titles and awards are part of the UK's (the Commonwealth too, I think still?) heritage and whilst the system is old fashioned and scoffed at by some-----it works and creates a huge amount of pride and goodwill not only for the recipient but the families and colleagues too.

I know that I and others have been having a spot of fun here by being deliberately evasive, but behind it all, there is a very real natural reluctance to say too much about these things. Not because any one is ashamed of the honours system, far from it, but "blowing one's own trumpet" really is not regarded with any enthusiasm by the British. Its just not done and it is the way we are, thank goodness.

It is exceedingly bad form to make too much of a fuss about these things and on day to day events no one will be any the wiser of your achievements and that is how it should be.No one likes a braggart and Britain has a natural aversion to such people and has ways of dealing with that, should the rare occasion arise. However, as M o R points out, in business and official letters and on one's card there are clues. I must add, there are many people with various honours who choose not to publicise their achievements at all and that is a personal choice that they make and it is quite acceptable so to do.

In passing, it is also bad form to ask people why and how they achieved an honour and you will need to know some one really,REALLY well before asking them how they achieved an honour and even then the reply from a military man might be "oh I helped an old lady accross the road once" or from somene else "oh I developed a better way of counting paper clips".

[BoldHighlander]

I know that I and others have been having a spot of fun here by being deliberately evasive, but behind it all, there is a very real natural reluctance to say too much about these things. Not because any one is ashamed of the honours system, far from it, but "blowing one's own trumpet" really is not regarded with any enthusiasm by the British.

Believe it or not, there are many of us on this side of the pond who feel the same way!

No one likes a braggart and Britain has a natural aversion to such people and has ways of dealing with that, should the rare occasion arise.

And neither do I! :mrgreen:

[Jock Scot]

I know for a fact that you are quite right Terry there are many individual Americans, including your good self, who are extremely modest about your achievments, but with the greatest of respect to your great and wonderful Country, modesty is not one of your Nation's strong points!

[BoldHighlander]

I know for a fact that you are quite right Terry there are many individual Americans, including your good self, who are extremely modest about your achievments, but with the greatest of respect to your great and wonderful Country, modesty is not one of your Nation's strong points!

Unfortunately I'd have to agree with you....but don't tell anyone I said so

[Jock Scot]

Unfortunately I'd have to agree with you....but don't tell anyone I said so

Not a word shall pass my lips.

[Lallans]

In the happy days when you could still buy Punch (or as in my case, read a library copy), I remember they mercilessly mocked Clement Freud for insisting on being called "Sir Clement" over the phone. So if the honourific is not used, it is always incorrect to correct the speaker?

Not that I expect my title will ever be awarded....

[robbiethepiper]

My father was given a knighthood when he retired. It was never mentioned verbally. When writing FORMAL letters he would sign normally then type the full bit below. Incidentally, this honour was for his life's work in the armaments business, which many would consider dubious, but it seems to make a difference if your employer is the government......

[Mike_Oettle]

MacMillan of Rathdown wrote:

The usual form would be:

(signed) Peter Peel
(printed on a card or letter paper) Peter Peel, OBE
(if in the armed forces then) General Sir Peter Peel, GCMG
(if the son of a Peer then) Hon. Peter Peel, CBE

And added to that, if the son of a duke or marquess, or the eldest son of an earl: Lord Peter Peel, CBE.

There is a trend among some ignoramuses who have lately been awarded life peerages to use their first names with their titles, but the use of Lord or Lady with a first name is completely wrong for the actual holder of a title.
(I do recall an exception: when George Brown entered the House of Lords there was already a Lord Brown, so he chose to be called Lord George-Brown. The use of a hyphen is obligatory in the Lords – when Andrew Lloyd Webber [no hyphen] became a life peer, he had to call himself Lord Lloyd-Webber.)

Regarding professors and doctors, Todd and Biathlonman are entirely correct: if a person holds a doctorate, it is entirely proper to call that person doctor. If a professor, professor also is appropriate.
But then we reach a place where British self-effacement comes into play: in German-speaking countries, and at Afrikaans-medium South African universities, one encounters the title Professor Doctor.
This is simply bad form in the Anglosphere, but at Germanic institutions one uses both titles if one has both a doctorate and a professorship.
It can get even more complicated. I recall a play reading in which my German teacher took the part of an extremely proper Afrikaans butler, who was required to announce a woman who was a professor with a PhD whose husband also was a professor with a PhD. After looking it up in a book of etiquette, he found that he was required to say: “Professor doktor mevrou professor doktor . . .”
Another example of bad form (often encountered in South Africa nowadays, I am afraid to say) is where a professor leaves his (her) teaching appointment and continues to use the title Prof. This is only permissible if one is made a professor emeritus. But an adviser to our president did just that.
There is a notion found in some quarters that only a person with a medical degree ought to be called doctor.
A Rhodes University, Grahamstown, academic doing research into the dialects of English spoken in the Albany (Grahamstown) district of the Eastern Cape used to socialise with farmers. At one braaivleis (or barbecue) he was introduced as “Dr So-and-so”, but the host immediately remarked: “He’s not a rreal doctor. He’s one of those things from Rhodes!”
In fact medical practitioners in South Africa (and in other English-speaking countries not including the US) generally have a double bachelorate: a degree in medicine (MB) and a degree in surgery (ChB), or MBChB as it is usually written.
Those who specialise generally go on to earn a master’s degree, but not many earn doctorates.
It is a matter of courtesy and tradition that these medical men (and women) are called doctor, but only those actually holding doctorates properly deserve the title.
In Britain there is a further distinction made regarding surgeons. A Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons (there are two such colleges – one based in London, the other in Edinburgh) is called mister, not doctor.
But this does not generally hold in South Africa.

Getting back to the New Year honours list, I found it far too long to try to take in all the names. But I did notice recognition for the man we used to see in the Pink Panther movies, jumping out from a place of ambush to attack Inspector Clouseau: Bert Kwouk.
Regards,
Mike

[CameronCat]

Which leads back to a question raised by an earlier post, but I was hesitant to ask. I'll preface this with an acknowledgment that things may be (are?) different on opposite sides of the Pond but...

Let us say that, in the U.S., I have a business acquaintance. I know him on a first-name basis on the phone, and see him two or three times a year at trade shows, seminars, etc. By dumb luck, I stumble on a press release identifying him as Dr. <Name>. The next time I talk to him, I say "I didn't know you had a doctorate. Where did you go to school and what is the degree in?" Over here, he'd probably say "Oh, I did grad work at XYZ Tech and the degree's in PDQ Engineering" or something similar.

My question, then, is that if I make a similar discovery for a UK business associate (again, first name basis & some regular contact), why is it considered poor form to say, "Gee, I didn't know you had appeared on the Honours List. What can you tell me about that?"

Even with due modesty, I would expect a reasonable answer..."Oh, it was for my work with XYZ Charity," or "raising funds for the opera house in Lower Begonia" or similar, and maybe the conversation would continue over a beer.

Or perhaps not. Would I just be a rude Yank for asking a reasonable question?

Opinions?